Andrea:

I’m Andrea Giles, and you’re listening to the Heal from Infidelity Podcast,
episode number 170, Recognizing Narcissism with Kendra Last. Hello and
welcome to the Heal from Infidelity podcast for courageous women learn not
only to heal from their spouse’s betrayal, but to become the boldest,
truest, most decisive and confident versions of themselves ever. If you
know there’s more for you than the life you’re currently living but don’t
quite know how to get there, you are in the right place. Stick around to
learn how to create a life that will knock your own socks off. Is it
possible? It is. And I’m here to show you how I’m your host, Andrea Giles.
Are you ready? Let’s dive in.

Hey everybody. I have a special treat for you today. I have a guest on that
you are going to love. I guarantee you’re going to learn from this
conversation. You’re going to be able to recognize things in your own
relationship, maybe in other people’s relationships that you can spot as
unhealthy as perhaps narcissism, perhaps narcissistic traits. You’re going
to learn the difference between the two. You’re going to learn if there’s
not as much to be worried about as you think, or if there’s things that
need to be really looked at in your relationship. This episode is intended
to help educate you, not to scare you, and just to help open your eyes to
different relationship dynamics, how they can show up and how they affect
the way that you think and the way that you do things. Enjoy it. Please be
sure to check out the show notes to learn more about how to work with
Kendra.

And also, please keep in mind that I am holding a class in January,
beginning of January, January 9th, about making the decision to stay or go
after infidelity. It is a three hour workshop. We’re going to go deep. I
would love to see you there. We’re going to be covering a lot of ground.
Register for that in the show notes. And also, as a reminder, my pricing is
going up for my group. If you know that you went in, now is the time. Go get
inside my group. Alright, again, inside show notes. I’ll turn it over to our
conversation and I hope that you find it very, very useful. Hello everybody.
I am back today with an amazing guest. Her name is Kendra, last. Kendra and
I go quite a ways back into an interesting time in both of our stories. I
wanted to bring Kendra here today because of her expertise in a specific
area that I think my listeners need to hear.

We’re going to be talking about narcissism today and understanding
narcissism in relationships and how to spot it. Kendra, I want to just tell
briefly how we met, and I’m going to turn it over to you to introduce
yourself. So a ways back, Kendra and I were both navigating our own
infidelities, our own betrayals, and we met at a retreat that was specific
for people who were navigating betrayal. And we were both there as clients.
We are there to learn and to heal, and that’s where we met and we’ve stayed
in touch over these years. I got into coaching and then Kendra got into
coaching and has her own practice, and I wanted her on because her specific
expertise is around navigating narcissistic abuse and particularly with
bera. And I know that there are many of you on here that are trying to
understand narcissism and have the question of am I married to a
narcissist? And we’re going to break some of this down today. So welcome,
Kendra. Can you tell us about yourself please? Hello.

Kendra:

Yes, hello. Thank you so much for having me now. I’m a certified life
coach, but decades ago, a little over a decade probably when we met, I was
not a coach and I was needing coaching and I was needing therapy and help
and things like that. And now looking back, it’s such a beautiful way to
turn that pain into purpose to be able to now help other women heal, which
is so important. You and I had a turning point at the retreat and now we
both run retreats to help women. So there’s just so many ways in which we
can help. But yeah, probably, well, I was married in 2005 and found out in
2006 that there had been betrayal in my first marriage and tried to deal
with it for a very long time, work with religious leaders and therapists
and things like that to kind of work through the betrayal and preserve the
relationship.

Ultimately, it ended in divorce. And honestly, one of the main things that
was so damaging in the advice that I got way back then was to not talk
about it, to not tell my family, to not tell my friends, to not talk about
it outside of a therapy or church leadership type position. And I know that
a lot of women are told that same thing. And so for me, being given
permission to tell my story was life-changing for me and the catalyst to
finding my own healing. And so if you have been told not to tell your story
and you’ve experienced betrayal or infidelity, I love that to be kind of my
first gift to you is to know you can tell your story. It doesn’t have to be
on a podcast like we’re doing today, but you can tell your family, you can
tell your close friends, you can tell support people. If our partners
wanted us to tell better stories about them, they could have been better
about that. So here we are just speaking the truth.

Andrea:

Yep. Thank you. Thank you. I’m curious, that thought by your therapist
about not telling anybody, what did that create in you? What harm was that
for you?

Kendra:

Yeah, just silenced for years. And it’s interesting because so many of my
clients now come to me and they’re like, I have these gut issues, like
diagnosed gut issues or I have just different conditions. Well, I felt
silenced like my throat and my voice was closed off and I ended up with
cancer in my chin throat area. And I believe that that is directly related
to being silenced for so many years. I think that our body and our minds
are very much connected in that way. And so if you are feeling physical
symptoms that you think are related to it, it’s probably very real. It can
be connected. And so definitely seek professional medical help for things
like that. But yeah, it just really created this belief that my story and
my part of this was not important, and that protecting his betrayal and
protecting his kind of reputation in good name was more important than my
comfort or his story was worth more than mine, I

Andrea:

Guess. It sounds very shame inducing to me.

Kendra:

Yeah, totally.

Andrea:

Keep quiet, right? Keep quiet. That’s very sad. So tell us, Kendra, I want
to shine a light today on narcissistic abuse and I want to hear more about
your story, about how you came to learn that it was narcissism and your
journey with this and even into your second marriage. Kendra will share
that she was married a second time and left. And as much as you want to
share, I know we’ll be very, very useful to our listeners today.

Kendra:

And so my first marriage is where the betrayal happened in the marriage
relationship. And then my second marriage, I thought that if I could just
find somebody who was not a betrayer, who could fill in the gaps, who was
religious, and I had this list of things, I thought that if I could just
find that person, everything would magically be better and marriage would
all of a sudden be happy and wonderful. And I found somebody who was very
good at pretending to be those things until we actually ended up married.
And then I realized he is a covert narcissist. It took many years to get to
that point. I went to a therapist for help with the marriage and on our
very first meeting she said, Kendra, you’re married to a covert narcissist.
And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, you just don’t understand.

Let me explain it better. And every three or four, not episodes, every
three or four sessions, she would remind me, Kendra, you’re married to a
covert narcissist. And it took over a year of her telling me that for it to
finally click in my own mind and my own knowing this like, oh my gosh,
you’re so right. And when I looked at the list in the DSM of all the
specific traits of a covert narcissist, he meant every single one except
one. So it was like, okay, and I think you have to meet seven out of 10 to
be diagnosed.

Andrea:

Tell us about in your first marriage where it was more, just tell us a
little bit more about your experience in that, how you came to knowing this
is a narcissist I need to leave. Tell us more about that.

Kendra:

Yeah, so I don’t know that I would call my first husband a narcissist in
the diagnosable sense. He’s certainly selfish and childish. But when I
decided to leave there too, I just decided that I deserved to be told the
truth to and decided that the lying, the continued lying was as bad or
worse than the continued betrayal that was happening and just decided that
was time to leave. When I decided with my second husband who is a cohort
narcissist, it really just kind of all was building up until one moment. And
I like to describe it as being suffocated or crushed to death by a pile of
feathers. And so when other people see it, and when you describe it to other
people, they’re like, well, what are you talking about? It’s just a bunch of
feathers. A feather is not harmful. It’s just a bunch of feathers or
bleeding to death from a million paper cuts.

Any one paper cut, not a big deal, but when they literally cover your whole
body, it’s a big deal. And we were leaving on vacation, and I had saved up
the money to take me, my husband, my kids, my step kids, everybody on this
big grand family vacation, 10 days in Mexico, and I had paid for the whole
thing and there was nothing, absolutely nothing that you could do to dampen
my mood. I was so excited. And this is later when we talk about ways to
tell if you might be in a relationship with a covert narcissist. This is one
of the ways. And so if this story resonates with you at all, just take note
of it. But I had come out to the car to find him yelling at all of the
kids. They were loading the luggage wrong into the van, and he of course
wasn’t helping. He was outside the van just yelling at them. And I just
came in and I was like, oh, how can I help? For sure, we can get everything
loaded. We just need to get going. This was in front of my parents who were
driving us to the airport, and he was just like, is this how you’re going
to be? I was like, what do you mean? I’m just here to help. Let’s just get
the luggage in the car. And he’s like, I think you should stay home.

I was just like, it was so wildly inappropriate. And so just far, he’d say
things to cut me all the time, but this one was just a step up, and it was
just this beautiful moment of clarity. I was like, okay, I know exactly
what I need to do now. And I just stopped speaking to him. I turned around
to the kids, we got everything loaded, and I was actually able to have a
really nice vacation because in that moment I made the decision and I was
like, I absolutely will not be treated like this anymore.

Kendra:

None of our kids will ever see me be treated this way by him again because
I am going to put a stop to it. And so then from that time for the next
four months, I was quietly making my escape plan. But yeah, sometimes
there’s just those moments that are so clear that you just cannot ignore it
anymore.

Andrea:

Yep.

Kendra:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Yeah. Okay. Let’s go to that moment because I think there’s so much truth
in that and you saying that it brings up memories, not great ones, but it
brings up some memories of just moments like that. It felt like a 10, 11,
12 reaction to a two problem, and it was usually my fault. Right?

Kendra:

Totally.

Andrea:

And so let’s talk about what that is, that dynamic. Let’s talk about some
of the traits. I think this will be useful and what I like about that
story, although I don’t like it for you, right?

Kendra:

Yeah.

Andrea:

But it showcases in a real example what it can look like. And something I
hear from clients that are trying to figure out what is this? It’s this
feeling that no matter what they say, it will be seen as a criticism, as an
attack, as that I’m doing it wrong. And there’s just no way to win. There’s
no way. And not even to win, to get on equal footing with the partner.
We’re not trying to overpower, we’re trying to be an equal, right?
Absolutely. And there’s just no way to get to that point where they’re just
seen as an equal. It’s always, well, if you would do it this way or not,
say it this way or just not say it at all, then we wouldn’t have this
problem. Totally. Right. So tell our listeners here more about the
difference between narcissistic traits and actual narcissistic personality
disorder. I think this matters a lot. I know there’s a lot of buzz out
there about narcissism, and I think you take it away, you go, and

Kendra:

Most narcissists who do meet all of the criteria to be diagnosed as a
narcissist, most will never be diagnosed. And the reason for that is
because they will never self-disclose,

Andrea:

Right? They won’t.

Kendra:

Tell the truth, all of the bad behavior that they are doing. And so when
they are diagnosed, it almost always or always involves the participation
of a close loved one who will help explain their true behaviors and the
intricacies of how relationships work, because they may even be truthfully
telling that person, well, I said this and she did this and I said this.
And when you look at it that way, it doesn’t look narcissistic. But when
you look at it from the lens of this has been going on for years, the reason
her reaction is so big is because it’s in response to years of this other
behavior, which is also kind of ties back to that feeling of being crushed
to death by feathers. It’s like when you look at any one thing. And so to
understand narcissists, you have to look at a bigger picture. You have to
kind of zoom out and look at things over time. Look at how you’re feeling
in that relationship over time. And the only reason that you would want a
diagnosis or to self-diagnose, if you will, to decide that you’re going to
say, my partner meets enough of the criteria, I’m going to say either to
myself or to whoever. He’s a narcissist or She’s a narcissist, is for you

Andrea:

Because it’s so helpful, so helpful.

Kendra:

Because when you understand that this is narcissism, that this is something
that we could go into, well, is it then their fault? I don’t really want to
go there. But if is narcissism, it’s not you. So even though they have been
blaming you for all of the things to understand, oh, this is narcissism, so
it’s for sure not me, whether or not he or she has control over it could
change it. That’s not for us to decide. But either way, whether they can
change it and improve or not, I certainly can’t have any control over it.
And so to be able to label it and say, yes, my ex is a covert narcissist
helps me heal. And as I go back and think about different times leaving on
the vacation, I can see it so clearly as this was narcissism, this was not
me.

I didn’t come in and say the wrong thing. It wasn’t the kids being bad or
wrong in how they did it. It is like this was a happy moment, which is
another way that a clue that they might be a narcissist is they want to
sabotage all of the happy moments that you have. And so if it’s anything
that is specifically focused on you Mother’s Day or your birthday or even
Christmas because you are getting some attention to, they will try to
sabotage those days. And so I see that vacation as kind of one of those
holidays. I was so excited about it. I had been saving up for months. I had
been working extra hard, and so he wanted to sabotage that happiness.

Andrea:

I want to thank you. That was so, so helpful. Something in particular that
you said that I find just so useful for my listeners is this piece of you
having it for you, you having that understanding for you. I remember in the
same place that you and I went when we met, I was in group therapy, I had
individual therapy, did all kinds of things. And I remember one of the most
useful things for me, there was literally in a group setting, having it
spelled out on a board like a chalkboard, the stages of the things that
happened in my marriage, I’m like, what? I thought it was me. I feel like a
crazy person. And to literally see somebody put it on a board was so
relieving, oh my gosh, it’s not me. It wasn’t me. And that’s not to say,
Kendra, that something I talk about a lot is we set ourselves free when we
do look at our part and hand over what is not ours. And there’s always
going to be parts in a relationship where we all always are growing and
maturing and learning, and that stuff’s normal, right? There always will be
times where we get triggered and don’t handle a conversation well, but what
we’re talking about here is very, very different.

And to be able to go, this isn’t me. This is not me. And really the
question of we can get so caught up in can he fix this? Can he not fix
this? Will he come around? Will he not come around? And I do think that
there is this space, you said it, that I think is really, really important
to go, whether he does or whether he doesn’t. This is how I’m choosing to
be treated. I will not continue to be treated in this way. And we can hope
for the best for them because generally we care about them, but it’s like
I’m not going to hold my breath anymore and wait on something that I don’t
know will ever happen. Right? Anyway. Yeah. So tell me for you, just in
general with the women you work with, and even for yourself, what makes
somebody a little more susceptible or vulnerable to pairing up with a
narcissistic individual?

Kendra:

Totally, yes. And I have a list and I will do that, but just kind of to
answer a question maybe you didn’t ask when you were talking about seeing
the stages of your marriage and your life on the board. That moment for my
clients is when we talk about the stages of narcissistic abuse, there’s the
love bombing,

There’s the devaluing, and then there’s the discard. And the most dangerous
part is the love bombing. And it’s dangerous because it feels so good, and
it tricks the victim into thinking, this is the real relationship. This is
how he is who he is, this is how it’s going to be. And then later when they
start treating us very differently and they tell us, it’s like, okay, well
then if I just stop doing that thing, we can get back to that real
relationship part. But that’s not the real relationship. The real
relationship is the devaluing part. The love bombing was just pretending,
but it felt so good. And so that’s also one of the ways that we fall prey
to the narcissist is they will test us during that love bombing phase of
just little tiny things like little tiny feathers. Little tiny cuts of
just, and just to see how we respond. Do we wince? Do we ask them
questions? Do we say, well, that was super inappropriate, or do we just be
quiet and maybe nervously giggle it off? Ha, and just avoid it.

Kendra:

They’ll be doing little testing things along the way, and then once they
feel like they have you, so this is often moving in together, getting
engaged, getting married, some event happens and they feel like, well, this
is kind of past the turn back now phase. I’ve got them. That’s when the
devaluing starts, and they kind of take off their mask a little bit. But how
they pick you, because a narcissist wants somebody with some very specific
personalities, and unfortunately, it is the most beautiful parts about you
that they try to exploit. So they want somebody who is introspective, who
is willing to do an interested in personal growth. And so the reason that
they want that is because then when they say, oh, Kendra, it’s your fault.
You did this, and so I did this. If I’m introspective, I will take some
time and I will think back to it. Did I really?

Andrea:

Totally, totally easy to mess with?

Kendra:

And it just puts pause on the conversation that we were having and is a
distraction to them having to take any heat for their real behavior.

So they definitely want somebody who’s introspective. They also want
somebody who’s honest and trustworthy, because if we are honest and
trustworthy, it’s very hard for us to imagine that somebody else could be so
calculated and manipulative. And so we want to believe the best that it’s
like, no, no, no, that’s not what they’re doing. That’s not who they are.
They’re a good person. They were just upset about whatever. Or when they
say, I didn’t mean to lie, it is like, well, really? Yeah. And then
somebody who’s really empathetic, because we really can empathize with
whatever story they’re telling us. And so often in the beginning we think,
oh my gosh, they’re so much like me. They’ve been through similar traumas,
they’ve been through similar things in their past. Because whenever you
tell a story, they’ll likely tell a very similar story back. And you think,
oh my gosh, I found my perfect match.

They totally get me because they’re so good at mirroring. And so when they
can find somebody who’s empathetic and will believe there maybe false
stories or embellished stories about what they’ve been through, we also
hold onto that and we’ll kind of use that as a past for them. Well, they’ve
experienced all this trauma. They’ve experienced all these things in the
past. Maybe that’s where it all comes from. Maybe it’s not actual
narcissism. Maybe it’s just responses to trauma or it’s addiction, and so
therefore I have to be patient with them. But somebody who’s just really
nurturing and compassionate is the perfect target for a narcissist,
unfortunately. And they just really exploit those beautiful, beautiful
parts of your personality.

Andrea:

Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I remember, man, this is a throwback taking me
back. I got married young. That’s what I was told to do. It was very
encouraged. It’s what I did. I was very young. I remember when we were
dating a lot of love bumming, a lot, a lot of love bumming, and everyone
knew who I was because he talked me up to everybody. And just so many
things like that. And then I remember while we were dating, there was
something that happened with another guy where I saw this aggression and it
was like, whoa, what was that? And in my little 19-year-old mind, I just
was like, I made an excuse for it. Like, oh, well, he must be stressed or
something like that. Oh, bless him. He must be stressed. And then got
married, and almost immediately he would pick fights with me. And it was so
bizarre to me because I didn’t see that at all when we were dating at all
that he was like, that aggression was then turned on me, and I remember
getting in the car sometimes feeling trapped because he would poke and try
to provoke me. And I remember just feeling like a crazy person. What is
this? What is this? Why do you want to fight with me?

And anyway, those stages are so helpful to see. They’re so helpful to see
and really to be able to, one thing you talked about is just those traits,
the people that are most susceptible, I will raise my hand and say, yeah,
I’ve been all of those things. I’ve been all of those things. And I think
many of the listeners here today would say, yeah, me too. Me too. And where
you grow, and the work that I do with my clients and Kendra, I am sure you
as well, is really helping you really, really own what’s yours, own what’s
not yours, and understand that it’s okay for us to be flawed and human and
say, no, and I’ve come a long way with this, but put so much pressure on
myself that I couldn’t want more until I reach some level of perfection or
darn close to it. And now I’m like, I can want things just because I want
them and be a flawed human who knew, right?

Andrea:

And not holding myself to this ridiculous standard before I can speak up.
Did you experience that, Kendra? That kind of thing?

Kendra:

Yeah. And I had so much pressure put on me that divorce was failure.

And I wanted so much to not fail, to succeed, to be a good example, and all
of those things. So especially after I had already been divorced once
divorcing the second time, I was like, oh my gosh, now I’m this twice
divorced woman. And was feeling a lot of shame around that and stuff. But
now when clients will ask me, well, do you see any success stories of being
able to stay with the person either who they see as narcissist or toxic or
has betrayed them? And it’s like, well, it depends on what you define as
success. I’m twice divorced, and I think I’m a great success story

Andrea:

Totally

Kendra:

Because I found a new level of self-love that I never had experienced
before. I have a new level of boundaries in all of my relationships, and I
just feel like I’ve reached this freedom part of life. I’m free to live and
love myself and to say no to things and to be flawed and to just truly be a
human. Amazing. I think that’s one way of success. And then are there
successful relationships afterwards? Yes, there are, but it just depends on
your choice in the matter. You get to choose why you’re staying. And that’s
one of the things that I really help my clients do is understand their why.
All of the options are available to you. There’s probably a hundred options
to any question. There’s not just, can I stay or can I leave? And that it
has to be super black and white. Those two options. So I really help them
explore what are those options, and then why are you picking the one you’re
picking? It’s always the right choice if it’s the right one for you.

Andrea:

Yep, yep. I amen to that. But you’re right, there’s so many nuanced ways of
staying, of going of, and at the end of the day, it is about can I get
behind it with full integrity in a way that feels loving to me? Right?

Kendra:

Totally.

Andrea:

And the answer to that is so individual, because what’s okay with one is
not going to be with another, and that’s okay. I want to say there’s so
much narrative out there around narcissism, and if you suspect you’re with
a narcissist to run and get out, get out, get out. And I will say I still
maintain that I believe in people, and I believe that if somebody really
wants to change, most people are pretty capable of it. Most people can. The
problem is, you nailed it earlier on in this conversation, that a true
narcissist will probably not get a diagnosis because they will not self
reveal. They will not. They just won’t to anyone. And that is the piece
that’s like if this person is not willing to just lay the cards on the
table, go, this is what is real. This is what is true. They can’t ever be
honest. They can’t ever fully be honest. But I do think that people can,
because we’re in this space I work with, my whole podcast is infidelity.
Infidelity can be a big enough crisis that cracks things open enough for
someone to go, what have I become? Who am I? Who even am I that I would do
this thing? And I see that all the time. I do. I see all the time with
people who use it as a catalyst to see themselves often for the very first
time,

But not always. And often in some situations, it’s the exact opposite where
it’s like, I’m going to use this thing to continue to blame, to make it
your fault, to need to hide even more. This is even more like, don’t tell,
don’t speak about it. What I said. I was Sorry. Let’s move on. Don’t bring
it up. What more do you want? I said I was sorry, and that I’ll never do it
again. No, no, no, no. True recovery looks very different than that as, and
so I do maintain that. I think there’s great hope for most people. I really
do. But we have to choose it. And the only way to choose it is to choose it
honestly, with our eyes wide open to ourselves. And as you were saying, one
of those moments for you with your eyes wide open was that moment at the
car, I can’t unsee it now. I see it. I can’t unsee it. This is not going
away. And what am I going to do with it? Right. Okay. Anything you want to
add to that, Kendra?

Kendra:

I think that what often happens, especially when we have one of those
really big moments that we just can’t unsee anymore, but then that’s a
moment where we’ll often go back and reflect on the past and then start to
see other smaller moments

Andrea:

For sure that

Kendra:

We now can’t unsee, and we start to judge ourselves for staying through all
of those things.

Kendra:

And so I just want to offer that once you have that moment of seeing that
you can’t unsee, don’t judge yourself for all of the other times that you
maybe didn’t see it, chose to stay thinking it was something else. We are
always, I truly, truly believe that we make the very best decisions in this
moment that we can with the information that we have at the time and the
thoughts we’re having at the time. And then when we know new information,
when we have new data and we have new thoughts, we can make new decisions.
But to go backwards in time and judge ourselves or shame ourselves or just
feel awful about it, is not helpful for getting you to be able to move
forward, heal yourself. It is just not helpful for anybody. If anything, it
then makes the narcissist feel like they’ve won more.

Andrea:

Yep. Absolutely. Such an important point. Such an important point. Because
yeah, if we’re conditioned to think that way and a lot based on the
relationship we’ve been in, surely this is my fault saying it is, but that
can just be prime grounds for punishing ourselves even more those moments.
So right, going back and going, oh my gosh, why did I not see? How could I
not see? Why did I do something different? You didn’t know, right? You
didn’t have the information. Now you do. And let’s move forward, not
backward. Right. Thank you, Kendra. Okay. I want to ask you, what are some
clues that our listeners here can look for that you might be in a
relationship with a narcissist?

Kendra:

Yeah. Okay. So I’ll give a few examples. This is definitely a partial list,
so there’s a thousand other things, but these tend to be the most common
things that I see with my clients and that I also experience myself. So one
is you might find yourself apologizing for things you didn’t do or say just
to keep the peace. This often happens, especially if you bring something up
to them that they are maybe doing, and then it somehow gets turned around
and you’re just so done with the conversation and you just feel like your
brain has been spun in a thousand different ways. You’re like, okay, I’m
sorry. I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have brought it up. I’m sorry. And then you
walk away and maybe a little while later you realize, what the heck? I was
just polished it. What? Yeah, what was that? Yeah. And very similarly, if
you bring up their bad behavior and they then turn it around and accuse you
of doing the same thing, and they do this for a couple of reasons.

One, it’s completely absurd because the thing that they’re accusing you of,
you absolutely have not done. But the reason that they do that is just to
take attention off of themselves and frustrate you and you having to
explain why you didn’t do the thing, or This is completely ridiculous. I
didn’t do that. You said these things often the narcissist will either be
very good at remembering specific words that were said in previous
conversations, or at least pretend to remember them is simply not the way
my brain works. I don’t know that that’s necessarily the case for all
victims of narcissists. I’m more of a feeling person. I can remember how I
felt in a conversation. I maybe can’t remember word for word for word. And
so I really had to get to a point where I was like, you know what? I can’t
say one way or another about that. I know I felt like this was happening at
the time. Let’s just move forward and talk about this right now. But they
will always try to argue the little teeny tiny details that one, not
important anymore, and two, that you just can’t compete in the remembering,

Andrea:

And it’s crazy making, right? It’s totally crazy. It makes you feel crazy.
Yeah.

Kendra:

Yes. Yeah. Something I mentioned a little bit before is just like if
they’re trying to ruin all of the special events for you, that’s definitely
a clue. And then just kind of having a moment where you realize I’m in a
relationship with somebody that’s very different than I thought I was in
before. All humans grow and change, and things happen for better or worse
throughout our lives. That’s normal. What’s not normal is to enter a
relationship with somebody who is sunshine and roses and just amazing and
seems like your perfect, perfect match. And then very soon after they kind
of get you that, then they change into a totally different person. And that
old person never returns. That’s not normal. So recognizing big changes in
their behavior could be a clue that they’re a narcissist.

Andrea:

So good. So good. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Alright, before we sign off, Kendra, this has been
such a powerful conversation. I will tell you, just sitting here for myself
is a weird taking me back going, oh, yeah. Oh yeah. It is been a minute,
right? I got divorced 11 years ago. He died 10 years ago. And there’s
something about the death piece that it’s like, I don’t want to think about
it as much, and it just brings it back. I remember, I remember this
distinct moment when I finally shared with a good friend what was going on.
I remember that moment where I was sitting, and her words to me were,
Andrea, your normal meter is off. And that couldn’t be truer. I didn’t know
which way was up. I was so twisted in my brain because it was intentional
to confuse me, to keep me questioning myself. Right.

Kendra:

Totally.

Andrea:

I would like you to share, first of all, if my listeners want to learn more
from you where they can learn more from you, what kind of work you do, and
also if there’s anything else that you would like my listeners to hear
today, what would you want them to know?

Kendra:

Yeah. I love that phrase that your normal meter or whatever is off so good,
because that would be my number one suggestion is to find somebody to talk
to whose normal meter is aligned.

Andrea:

Totally. Totally. Yes.

Kendra:

Right? Whether that is a friend or a parent or somebody, or whether that’s
a professional that you can hire like me or you, but to find somebody and
bonus points and better, if it’s somebody who’s experienced it, who’s
healed from it, who’s learned from it. I’ve been studying this for years.
I’ve been working in the betrayal trauma arena for a decade, and so I’m a
great resource if they’re looking for a one-on-one coach. I coach
exclusively one-on-one right now. But to seek professional help from
somebody who’s experienced it, I went to multiple therapists looking for
somebody to help me, and they hadn’t experienced it. They knew it by the

Andrea:

Book clinically, right,

Kendra:

Clinically,

But they couldn’t really empathize or really point out some of those really
specific behaviors. And so it does make a difference to be able to find
somebody who’s experienced it. I have two kind of paths that I work with
people. One is just normal weekly, one-on-one coaching calls, and then the
other one is a VIP experience where it’s multiple contacts a week, and we
work together for a full year and really focus on that long-term healing and
growth. And oftentimes that’s making decisions. Do I want to stay in this
relationship? Do I want to spend a few months really trying to water the
grass, if you will? The grass is always greener where it’s watered. Do I
want to spend some time really focusing on what’s in my control to make the
relationship better and see if it makes a difference? There’s just so many
different paths.

So knowing ahead of time, Hey, I’ve got exclusive access year of really
good support. It’s really great, especially if you just don’t have other
supports like a best friend or a parent or somebody that you can talk to.
So there’s those two different ways to work with me. I’m also an admin of a
great Facebook group called Humans Navigating Betrayal. And so if people
are looking for a free resource, they’re welcome to join that group. And
it’s for all types of betrayal, but there’s a lot of people in there who
have experienced narcissistic abuse or have experienced infidelity. So I
think your listeners will find good support there as well. And I’ll make
sure that you’ve got the links that they can book a free consultation with
me to just get on a call, chat with me. They can tell me what’s been going
on, and then we can move forward with a plan to help them heal.

Andrea:

Wonderful. Thank you. So helpful. And is there anything else you would like
to say to my listeners before we wrap it up?

Kendra:

You are worth healing. You are worth the time. You are worth the expense.
You are worth all of the energy in all the ways that it will take for you
to heal, because it can be permanent healing. It doesn’t have to stay like
this right now in the middle of all the yuck. It feels like this is just
the way it’s going to be forever. So even if there’s a word that I like to
use, and it’s a tiny little word, but it’s so powerful, it’s yet so often
they’ll say, well, I can’t afford to leave him. And I will say, I can’t
afford to leave him yet. And when you add that to the end, love, it helps
you get curious. I wonder when I’ll be able to do that. I wonder how I will
get there. I wonder what steps I can take to eventually do that.

And so if you are in that place right now where you’re like, I don’t think
that this can happen. I don’t know what I would do, just add that little
word to the end of your sentence and see what happens for you. But it’s
never complete to make a decision, and it’s never too early to make a
decision. Meaning just because you’ve been with this person for a decade or
more doesn’t mean that you then have to hold on forever. And just because
you’re just now waking up to it doesn’t mean it’s too early to make a
decision. When you feel like it’s right, it’s the right time. So put
yourself first and you are worth healing.

Andrea:

Yep. Perfect. Thank you so much, Kendra. That was very, very helpful. I
know this is going to be one of those episodes that people re-listen to and
go back for more gems and take notes and really dig deep with, and that is
the purpose, to help people go deep and into their own heart, into their
own truth, and really be honest with themselves about what they want, about
who they are and what they want. And I think this will really help shed
some light on that for a lot of people. So thank you so much. I’ll be sure
to put how you can work with Kendra, how you can learn more from Kendra in
the show notes. And thank you so much for being here.

Kendra:

Thank you for having me.

Andrea:

Thank you for listening to the Heal from Infidelity podcast. If you would
like to be kept in the know about upcoming free classes, new podcast
episodes, and other ways of working with me, go subscribe to my weekly
email. You can subscribe at https://andreagiles.com/lies-about-infidelity/.
Again, it’s https://andreagiles.com/lies-about-infidelity/ I will see you
next time.