Andrea: I’m Andrea Giles, and you’re listening to the Heal from Infidelity podcast. Episode number 240, Navigating Couples Therapy and Coaching After Infidelity with E.J. and Tarah Kerwin.

Infidelity changes everything. Who you thought you were, what you thought your life was. From here, you can keep circling the pain or rebuild something real. This is a space for men and women navigating infidelity. Whether you’ve been betrayed or you’re the one who broke trust, I’m Andrea Giles, master certified relationship coach. I know what’s possible on the other side. When you’re willing to tell the truth all the way out, you’re in the right place. Let’s begin.

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Heal from Infidelity. I’m so delighted to bring guests today that are going to be sharing with you some of their experience in doing deep dives with difficult relationships. It’s E.J. and Tarah Kerwin out of Tucson, Arizona. Tarah is a licensed marriage and family therapist and coach, and E.J. is a licensed professional counselor and coach as well. They’re husband and wife, they work together, and they are the host of the Relationship Renovation podcast and the co-host of Relationship Renovation Counseling center in Tucson, Arizona. Their main focus is helping individuals and couples striving to improve their lives and relationships, especially through difficult transitions, difficult challenges such as infidelity and other relational challenges. I’m so delighted to have you both here. Can’t wait to learn from you. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

E.J.: Nice to be here.

Tarah: Thank you. Sometimes when I listen to that, I’m like, gosh, working at Trader Joe’s sounds so good, right?

Andrea: Oh, my gosh. I so understand it.

Tarah: Like, wow, I didn’t know, but I. I’m, like, so grateful for it, but I’m just like, wow.

Andrea: It’s a lot, like, no pressure. No pressure at all. Not at all. Not at all. Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you so much for being here. I’m so grateful to have you on. First of all, I would love to know about you two. Like, how long have you been together? When did you. Was it always a plan to be in business together? How did you come into that? Yeah, Tell us a little bit about how you arrived here.

E.J.: I, um, mean, I’ll start, and then Tarah will complete. Yeah, I mean, we started off as friends. We were working together at an inpatient treatment facility for women with eating disorders. You know, even when we were friends, I always thought she was just, like, the most, like, delightful, like, wonderful, like, fun person ever. And, uh, I Went through a divorce, and Tarah was going to be. I. I was out of town because I used to work at a camp in Maine, and I was out of town for the summer. We kind of talked on the phone during that summer when kind of everything was. You know, my life was, like, changing greatly. And Tarah was gonna take me out and.

Tarah: And, uh, find him a rebound.

E.J.: My wing sister. And find me a rebound. And we ended up.

Tarah: He kissed me that night.

E.J.: Yeah, uh, we kissed her. E.J., we’ve been together since.

Tarah: You’ve been together? Yeah. I was only supposed to be in Tucson to get, like, my eating disorder specialty hours, and then I was going back to Cali, where I had my private practice because I’ve always worked at, like, a. A center. But I’ve also had a private practice because I’ve been a marriage counselor for 20 years, and I loved doing that on the side. And so even when E.J. and I met, I still had my private practice on the side working with couples. And then. Right. We fell in love. He had two boys from his previous marriage who were. I believe, when we got married, they were three and five. And then on our honeymoon, we got pregnant with twins. So I went from zero to four children in a year and a half. And I. And the twins had colic, by the way. Both of them, um, for. For nine months. Um, Andrea, not nine weeks. And I was like, I’m leaving you.

Andrea: Yeah, that’s a way to test the worst thing.

Tarah: She. Because I just was. So. I had no idea for kids under 5 and colic. And that’s when I was like. I knew I loved E.J., but I said, E.J., uh, if our transition is this hard and we have the skills, like, we were great communicators. I thought blending our family together was going to be amazing. I had no idea. And I said, we have to figure our own shit out first, and then we have to help couples in our community. And that was in 2016. We opened up. Our twins were born. In 2014, we figured out as much as. And in 2016, we opened up our couples counseling center, and we developed a whole program, a model called the Relationship Renovation Model. And we didn’t know, like, how successful it would be. And now, what, 10 years later, we have 12 therapists

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Tarah: and interns that we train in our model, and we get to help, I think, 100 couples a week go through our doors in Tucson. It’s freaking awesome. That’s amazing.

Andrea: Amazing.

Tarah: And I remember E.J. was like, Tarah, I do not like working with couples. And I’m like, hear me out, buddy. So that is kind of us in a nutshell. Our twins are now 12. The boys are, like, 17 and 19. We did it. We freaking survived. And never ended up going to my twin sister’s house in Kentucky and leaving them. But I really wanted to.

Andrea: Oh. As fellow twin mom, right. I get colic for having twins with colic. Oh, man, that’s an idea. Straight to the hills. Head for the hills. That’s a lot. That’s a lot.

E.J.: And I think. I think what people have, like, loved working with us over the years or listening to us, our podcast is that, like, we’re not preaching from the mountaintop. Uh, we still aren’t. We’re still figuring it out every day, every week. You know, it’s. It’s. It’s not easy. It takes effort. It takes skills. It takes insight, and, you know, and. And people. It just normalizes it for people, because I think so many people, you know, none. None of us know what’s going on behind each other’s doors.

Andrea: No.

E.J.: And we open up a little bit about what’s happening behind our doors and admit that, like, yeah, we’ve. We’ve. We still fall apart and we still struggle, but we’re dedicated and, well, and

Tarah: life is always a transition. And, uh, like, we. We didn’t know that transitions could be so difficult. We just felt like love was enough. And then, you know, it brings us into, like, all the skills we didn’t know and all of our past traumas that come out in our closest relationships. We have in our lobby, when you walk into our counseling center, we have this chalkboard, and it says, our partner can be our greatest teacher. Be patient for the lessons. And it’s so true. Like, EG and I were compelled to stay in it because we’re therapists. I’m like, what do I have to learn from this? But a lot of people aren’t. And so they’re like, this just feels bad, so I’m going to leave. And that is true in some cases for sure. But, like, I’m just so grateful that we went through what we did. And we’re here. Right. How many years later now? 16 years. We’ve been together 15 years. And we’re like. And we’re helping all these couples from all around the world just because we’re sharing that we’re broken, too.

Andrea: Oh, uh, so amazing.

Tarah: But we’re therapists and coaches, so we’re compelled to do the work. And it does work.

Andrea: Yes. You know, I have to say in. In Prepping for today. I wanted to get to know you guys and know more about you. So I listened to some episodes, and I think the first thing I notice is. Oh, they’re real. Like, they’re real. They’re not. Like you said, E.J., you’re not up there on your. You know, up there on the ivory tower saying how once you’ve gone through all of this, then you can sit up here with me. Right. None of that. None of that.

E.J.: Like, I’ll join you down there.

Andrea: I’ll hang out with you. Totally. Right. Matt will talk about it. We’ll talk about it and shine a light on it. And what a breath of fresh air. I’m telling you. What a breath of fresh air. I. I just enjoyed listening to the things I listened to. Because it’s real. Right. Like, not pretending. Like, none of us have it all figured out. None of us do. Right.

Tarah: I have lots of ugly cries. Always ugly cries on YouTube.

E.J.: Yeah. The tax thing is, it’s like. Yeah, we’re changing. Our bodies are changing. Our lives are changing.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: And the place it always affects is your relationship.

Andrea: Right. Right. Every time. Every time. So, okay, let’s. Let’s jump into some stuff here, because you already said something that stood out to me. You said, we thought love is enough.

Tarah: Hmm.

Andrea: M. Hmm. I love. I’d love to talk about that. Tell me, what do you think now? What do you think now? Thought love was enough. Uh, through your, ah, own journey and all the clients that you help. What do you think now about that statement? And what do you think is enough?

E.J.: I mean, I mean, that’s, like such, like. That just hits me hard. I mean. I mean, love is important. Love is important. But. But I think, like, love is oftentimes what we settle back into.

Andrea: Oh, tell me more.

E.J.: Yeah. And I think. I think one of the things that I respect and care about, Tarah, and what I think has helped us get where we’re at is that we. We both look at ourselves really deeply and ruthlessly. Sometimes consistently amazing.

Andrea: Uh, yeah.

E.J.: And that. That. And that. That has been. I think our. Our root is our own personal growth.

Andrea: Yep.

E.J.: Because. Because I can’t control what Tarah does and doesn’t do. You know, I don’t have. I don’t have power there. Where I do have power is looking at myself and what’s my part and what can I learn for this from this? And what am I, like, what am I missing about me? You know, that was a big thing for me is especially having been divorced.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Was here. I’m with somebody who’s comfortable.

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E.J.: So different. The foundation of our relationship is so much stronger, and yet I’m having very similar problems.

Andrea: So.

E.J.: And so m. What is the common denominator in this? It’s me. You know, it’s me. And, and. And it’s. And that’s. It’s just been such a. Interesting and, and often difficult, like, process of like, looking at myself and being like, what the, uh, what am I doing? Like, I don’t even know. Like, yeah, I think I’m doing things for good reasons. And what I realized a lot of times I wasn’t. I wasn’t being wise. I wasn’t being self reflective. I wasn’t owning, you know, some. Some really, you know, not helpful patterns that I can fall into. And still, you know, still with that. And that’s what. And that’s what has. I think that’s what’s helped us. And then I think that’s what’s translated into helping couples is really like whole. We call it, like holding up the mirror.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Instead of pointing the finger.

Andrea: I love it. That’s beautiful. Oh, uh, that. I love it. And I’m guessing that because you both have that. The ability even to self reflect, like, you’ve grown that within yourself to be able to self reflect, that it probably makes people feel so much safer with you.

Tarah: Right. Yeah. I would say for me, I didn’t realize, like, I, uh.

E.J.: Right.

Tarah: I come from a lot of trauma in my childhood, and there’s a reason why I’m a therapist. I was like, I knew I was going to be a therapist from a very young age. And so then I thought, like, oh, I’ve done all my work and now I meet this great guy. Like, I was, I. I was a marriage counselor when I was 24, and I was like, I’m never getting married. Like, I saw. But then, like, when I. When EG and I, our friendship developed into that thing and I was like, oh, my gosh, like, I was 36, 35. I was okay not getting married because I was like, I just want to make sure that it’s like, right and healthy. So I. I thought I had done all my work well when all the kids happen right. And the twins had colic and I was nursing every hour and I would go five days without sleeping. Like, there was so much trauma that was triggered that I didn’t even know. From, like, abandonment wounds to overwhelmed to just PTSD symptoms from, like, lack of sleep. And I had just assumed that, like, E.J.’s this therapist. He’s had two kids before. He’s totally gonna know how to rock this. He didn’t. And so I would blame him for me being so overwhelmed. And then I was like, I’ll never forget the day, like, he came in. He had to take over my entire caseload of eating disorder clients. And he would work from, like, nine to nine. So I was all by myself with these four kids who for 12 hours a day. And I remember he came to the door and I was like, I hate you. Like, I hate everything about you. Like, I’m. You are the reason why I am feel, um, so bad. And I remember. And then I remember, like, going crying into my bedroom. And I was like, what is happening? Like, he’s like, the best human I’ve ever known. Like, I love this man. And, um, that first night, I said, E.J. burnt toast. That’s our code word. I said, I’ve got to have a code word. Cause, like, something is happening in my brain that’s making you register, like, as a monster and a huge threat. And that was, like, the beginning of, like, us creating our relationship renovation model. I said, code word means I have to take a time out and I have to start recognizing what are my triggers. I’m so overwhelmed, and you don’t know how to protect me. And I just wanted him to be that protector that I never had. Of course, he can’t be the protector I’ve never had. Like, that’s not his job. But if I wouldn’t have got to that individual growth piece of it, I would have been like, peace out, dude. I’m going to go find someone that can protect me. Right. It was just, uh, that, like, how can I use all of my triggers? Which were a lot, from the ex wife to the step parenting, where you feel powerless to colicky tunes. Um, man. Yeah.

E.J.: Ah.

Andrea: It would throw you right into the deep end. And.

Tarah: Yeah. And it’s skills, like, love isn’t enough. There’s so many skills I didn’t know even as a therapist, like, and all the, like, tools you have in your tool belt. I had never been triggered in that way in my whole life. I’d never been that overwhelmed. I kept my life pretty easy, man.

Andrea: Uh, I can only imagine just all of that all at the same time and probably going, I know. Let me ask this of you, Terry. You had all these years under your belt of working with people, you all these tools, and it required something different that you then created, Right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Andrea: So tell us.

Tarah: Like, I was a shitty couples therapist for, like, I mean, my heart was in the right place, but I had no idea. I had no idea. And I remember I would get couples that were like, how do you know? Like, you’ve never been married. You don’t have kids. I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I know, but. But I. But I’m here with your suffering, right? And then I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so much harder. Like, that’s why I was compelled. I’m like, we have to help our community, E.J., if two therapists are struggling like

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Tarah: this. Yeah, right. I had no idea. But I think I cut off your question. I’m sorry.

Andrea: No, you’re good. But like you said, like, if two therapists are struggling with this, good luck to people who don’t know any of this at all. Right? And then it feels. Although I know I’ve had moments where I’m like, I don’t know anything about anything. I like, it’s all out the window, right? And I have to remember, bring myself back right to the things that I know. Oh, uh, gosh. So tell me. Tell me more about this model that you created. It sounds amazing.

Tarah: It is m my baby. And we actually have it now on Amazon for, like, relationship innovation at home. So couple can order it for Cause so many couples can’t afford therapy. But, um, I come from an attachment theory, family systems, uh, background in my training. And E.J.’s, you know, he’s kind of like Buddhist mindfulness, some CBT. So we kind of used our own theoretical orientations and we developed this like, beginning, middle, and end. Because what we recognize is, like, couples need structure, right? They don’t need rigidity, but, like, they need a beginning and middle and end. Otherwise you get caught up in their system and it’s like, oh, my God. What You. You teach them a couple coping skills, but they get stuck. And so we do a pretty in depth assessment in the first couple of sessions and before we like, really even go into, like, goals and values, we go into what’s called the genogram and individual timeline. And we get each person’s history, right? Their family tree growing up from, like, in the womb until up until they met. We understand their attachment style, we understand their defense mechanisms, their survival techniques. We understand who cared for them, who didn’t, who attuned who didn’t. We understand their adolescent development. And then after. And that’s where couples start to, like, have more compassion. Cause when we get couples in our center, they’re like, it is this or we’re done. That is literally like the Biggest statement people make, like, and how do we know this is gonna work? We’re like, well, we don’t. We don’t have a crystal ball. We wish we did. But we know that you’re in a place of fear now. And after going through this model, you’ll have more clarity to see if you guys can make it work. So we do that genogram, individual timeline. And then we take them through their relationship timeline from when they first met and we help them see all the ruptures and the skills they didn’t know they needed to have or they just assumed or expected the other person would. Right. And then through that process, we then take them through our whole communication series, intimacy series. And by that time they’re creating their new story and they’ve made all this progress and they’ve made these shifts. And then our final session is called the old story. New story. And it can be triggering. Cause like this is usually six months. It’s about a four to six month process with infidelity. I’m going to say it’s longer, about one to two years. And it’s all okay. I have one couple that’s six years in because they just love coming and growing. I’m like, okay, that’s great. They’re not dependent on me. I promise they’re down to once a month. But it’s like we. Where was I going with that? That’s my menopause.

E.J.: Wrapping it up into old story.

Tarah: Oh, old story, new story. So they share like what their thoughts and feelings and behaviors and negative core beliefs in when they first came in. Like, we shouldn’t be together. We can’t handle this. A ton of hyper vigilance, you know, just a lot of like uh, just disempowering behaviors and feelings to like what they’ve learned over this process with each other over six months. And you know, we have a lot of at home assignments we ask them to do not because they need to do homework, but because outside of the therapy or coaching session, like you have to create an hour outside to be curious about each other.

Andrea: Yes.

Tarah: And a lot of like our at home assignments are just like curiosity. Like what did you learn about sex when you were younger and what are your beliefs and what could be like a new story if you weren’t in your little box around like sex is bad unless you love somebody and then it can be really good. You’re like, what? And so just, just couples prioritizing their relationship is kind of what that model is. And again, it’s like A beginning, middle and end. And it’s very flexible for every couple. Some couples need stabilization first to even get into that work because there’s so much. Whether it’s contempt or anger. And so that’s my jam on our model. E.J., what about you?

Andrea: Beautiful.

E.J.: Yeah, I’m. I mean I think it was, it was created like Tarah said, because of what a couple’s need. But then it was, uh, for us as, as therapists, as coaches, it, it sort of like helps orient us to a process and so that we don’t get caught up into their system. Because you know, one of the things we notice when you do that individual timeline and then you begin their, their relationship timeline is how our individual suffering and adaptive, you know, sort of techniques, uh, how they, how they unintentionally create really dysfunctional systems.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: Yep.

E.J.: You know, and so it just gives us the structure of knowing how to guide somebody through that, you know, Ah. And not just end it end up being like a weekly or bi weekly session.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Where, where you’re just a referee.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: Because that’s, that’s not useful.

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E.J.: They don’t, they don’t need a referee.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: Yeah. They don’t need a mediator. They need somebody who’s going to help them build insight and create action. Because we, uh, one of another of our mottos is like insight plus action equals results.

Andrea: Beautiful. Beautiful.

Tarah: Yeah. Intention plus action. And it’s also like when couples get stuck in their pattern. Because at first I want to see it, I want to see where their stuck patterns are. But it’s like when a therapist is like, listen, what you guys are going to hear is nothing different. Like you guys can go outside of here 23 hours a day and do that, but like you’re not going to hear it differently in here right now. So just trust us. Let us do the. Because like, I don’t need to go through my timeline. I don’t need to look at my past. I just want to talk about the infidelity. And we’re like, listen.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: You won’t hear it differently. Trust me. We’ve been doing this for 20 years. And that confidence we have, I feel like it puts people at ease. Yeah.

Andrea: That they can just follow the structure. Follow it. And that uh, it’s going to, that they’ll, they’ll figure it out too. That it’ll work.

Tarah: Yeah. Let, let us help you get more insight into the pattern first before just continuing to like, just get, be stuck in this negative toxicity. So we are kind of like refs sometimes in our session. So just wear, like, a referee shirt. But. But yeah, so it’s amazing.

Andrea: Um, so what do you do? So you both. It sounds like when you found each other, you brought in this commitment to your own. Your own work, and it’s ongoing. Right. As we’ve talked about. It’s ongoing till we die. Right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Andrea: I think as long as we’re in these human forms, we’re in it for the long haul. Right. But a question I have for you that I hear a lot, too, with my. With my audience is that fear of one person being really committed to healing, to really understanding, to getting their bearings of the whole childhood stuff, all of that. But one might be really resistant to it. I’m sure this is nothing. You guys have not seen a lot. So what do you do? Like, how do you help. How do you help both people with that when one is really resistant and ambivalent?

Tarah: We have a lot of.

Andrea: And ambivalent. Yes. Yes.

E.J.: I mean, one piece that we. That we always push in is that if one person starts to change, the whole system starts to change.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: You know, and. And so you have to have some trust in that. And. And then that’s where, like, the lack of attachment to outcome is so important, because you don’t know what that change is. Is going to be. But we do see in a majority of couples that when one person starts to change, then the other person, because the system is changing, sort of is forced to change.

Tarah: Right.

E.J.: And they could, like, double down into resistance. But even that is change, and it creates. And that’s a message that the other person then has to take. But a lot of times what it is that the other person just starts to see the value in it. M. You know, they see the other person taking accountability. They see the other person, you know, regulating, uh, their nervous system better, and they just. They just sort of get. Get into it. And it certainly helps if both of them are showing up, because also, you know, one of our jobs is we are. We’re accountability coaches as well. And. And having that ability to. To reflect that to the person who’s got their heels dug in.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: And it’s not their partner saying, like, you’re not doing anything. And it’s me or Tarah saying, you know, wow, Like, I see that you’re, like, pulling back, you know, and let’s understand that. Let’s look at that from a compassionate way. Um, and an empathetic way of, like, wow, like, why. Why is that the choice that you’re making? Is it even A choice that you’re making. You know, because that’s a big thing about adaptive patterns is they’re not, they’re not choice based. They’re uh, they’re instinctive.

Andrea: So just bringing awareness, bringing awareness to what’s going on and, and getting curious. That curiosity sometimes.

E.J.: Yeah. Because sometimes they can hold up the mirror for themselves. Uh, so then our job as is to, is to sort of do it for them.

Andrea: Yep.

Tarah: And I will say this like we. Right. Cause we always do con consultations or discovery calls first to just make sure a couple’s even appropriate. Right. Because there are couples. But you gotta have at least one shared goal together in order to. For couples therapy or coaching tour. Because if you don’t have any shared goals, that’s where we’d be like, let’s do some individual work first.

Andrea: Right.

Tarah: Or you know, you can’t force somebody to come in and be in session.

Andrea: Right.

Tarah: Even if it’s like a tiny itty bitty goal. Like yeah. You know, we, we, we try to get that in common. And then there’s. Right. And then there’s just like that idea of like if your partner is resistant and doesn’t want to come in, like how can you. Like this doesn’t feel sustainable for the individual. They’re in this constant

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Tarah: place of like disconnection and just feeling alone. And uh, and they say you’re, you feel more alone in a relationship where you feel disconnected than you would if you were just alone living. Right. Yeah. So like how to. Like we had you on our podcast earlier, like how do you build trust that you can handle it, whatever it is. Yeah. At an individual level, like build trust in yourself to feel empowered so that you can make choices from a clear place as much as we can versus a uh, hyper vigilant like flight, fight, freeze. Fun space.

Andrea: Beautiful. Yeah. And in all the work you do, you, you’d mentioned to me before we got on this recording that you guys work with a lot of people navigating infidelity. Right. That there’s a lot. And tell me in that space a lot of people feel like they, they have to either figure out how to stay or they must leave out of self respect. Right? Uh, that’s a belief. I’m not saying I believe that. I’m saying that’s something that people think. Right. How do you guys navigate that when you have people coming in with those kind of predetermined beliefs?

E.J.: Yeah. I mean a big thing is, is back to the lack of attachment to outcome.

Andrea: Mhm.

E.J.: Is like, hey, clearly what is going. Because I’ve said this to people like in the consultation or discovery call, like, hey, whatever you do, if it’s not us, do something.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Because. Because clearly you guys are suffering. Yeah. Clearly this is. You uh, guys are in a really, really tough space.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: And so it’s. And, and we don’t know where this is going to end up, but you really need some support. And it’s also where like that. Where our role as the holder of hope comes in is that I really believe no matter what, you both have the potential to gain something really incredibly valuable.

Andrea: Wow.

E.J.: And that this. And that this can be a, A pivot point into building a life where you’re a lot happier.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: Where, where you’re in a system that is conducive to growth and wellness. You know, and so some of it’s just like, you know that like, okay, this is where you are and you gotta emerge into something or you know, you gotta enter into some sort of, ah. A process that’s gonna, that’s gonna help you through it.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Whatever the heck happens.

Andrea: Yep. Yep. I love that it’s such high. Just service, like, of service. It doesn’t need to be me, us. Right. But get support.

E.J.: Something.

Andrea: Do something. Yeah.

Tarah: And. And I also too feel like I done like a lot of trauma work with clients and within myself and that. Right. When infidelity happens, whether it’s like been ongoing or just someone just found out like a lot of psycho education on betrayal, trauma and symptoms and hypervigilance and that like they, the couple has to find a way to have like consistent regulation so they’re just not in a hyper vigilant, constant PTSD place all the time.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: You know, and that if that is the case. Right. Especially if there’s kids around. Like. Right. We have a lot of couples that have kids and it’s like, okay, you guys, how can you create some space if you need that too? Because a lot of like it takes like a year. Like research shows it’s about a year for like betrayal trauma, if the system’s okay and you can regulate for it to kind of get more grounded in it.

E.J.: Yeah. I think that, that, that’s a really important framing for couples or individuals who are going through it is that uh, an infidelity is a trauma and it’s not an insignificant or a minor trauma. It is a. It is, it’s. It’s up there. Right. And that framework, I see people like, like, almost like, like sigh, you know, of like, oh, okay, okay. This is A, uh, this is like a huge, huge deal.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: You know, people that. And. And then when you feed it into that framework, then there’s some ways in which you can support them that are very concrete.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: You know, because that’s the other thing is. Is it feels, like, incredibly abstract in those moments. You know, psychological pain is as abstract. You can’t put your finger on it. But when we. When we create a framework for, um, then it gives them some hope that you’re. That they’re going to get through it.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Because. Because like we spoke about when you were on our podcast, it is. It is one of the most disorienting events that it can happen in your life.

Andrea: Yep.

E.J.: And. And I’m here, Tarah’s here, we’re here. You’re there to guide them through it.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: You know.

Andrea: Yep. Yep.

Tarah: Uh, well, and can I share this, too? One of the reasons why we also transitioned, like, therapists in the state of Arizona, but coaches, is because, you know, like, we give access to, like, our couples, like, nine through five from this coaching app. And so, like, in the m. Cause you can’t. Right. There’s ethical boundaries and guidelines for, like, a therapist and, uh, a client

00:30:00

Tarah: versus with coaching, you can get, like, in the moment, like, this is happening. And I feel like we have more ability as coaches because I, you know, you were doing the therapy realm, and then all of a sudden coaching spoke. Like, it just feels like, oh, my gosh. In the moment. Because some couples wait one to two weeks with this thing, and then they bring it in and it’s like, oh, my gosh. You’ve been holding this for, like, a week. How. Oh, that is so awful. Like, I feel so bad that you had to do that.

Andrea: Right.

Tarah: Like, that’s what outpatient therapy is. Right? Yeah.

Andrea: Uh, yes. When it’s like 9-911-I- need help immediately. And.

Tarah: Yeah.

Andrea: And trying to navigate it, when you don’t have. Right. We’re just not there to navigate on our own. Right. At, uh, those beginning stages. I love that you offer that. That’s amazing. That’s amazing. A question I have for you guys in as you. As you work with all these couples that you work with for, what are your beliefs about your thoughts about couples that do the work and ultimately maybe go separate directions or feel misaligned or do you see that much or do you see most of your couples work through it?

E.J.: I would say it’s. It’s certainly higher and better than they’ve ever been. Part of that has to do just the paradigm that we form, work within, which is couples counseling. That most of the time, both of them have some investment and drive to keep it together. But certainly we also have a, you know, a percentage of people who. It’s. It’s. That’s not the path. And the. And the pathway that they end up is that they. They do split up, but it’s more amicable. Um, and can you do it and with some grace modeling for your children? Yeah, especially if it’s kids involved. But can you realign your relationship? Because you still, especially if you have children, the relationship continues. It’s just not a marriage anymore. You know, it’s not a partnership anymore. So.

Tarah: And. And the. The buy in, too, is like, do you want the same thing repeating in your big time, uh, next relationship? Because it, like, research shows, right. The statistics are, first marriage is like, what, 48% right now. Second marriages, it’s like a 63%. Third marriage is. It’s. It keeps increasing because we think this person is totally different from the last person. And then, bam, something keeps getting triggered, and it’s like, how did this happen? Uh, so for me, it’s like, guys go through this process, right? Either way, and then you’ll have more clarity. And then. Right. And then we’ve had couples that cry because they’re amicably ending, and they’re so thankful that they’re able to model this to their children and part ways and have, like, a great parenting plan. Like, we’ve seen it all. I would say the majority work, but not, I was like, to say, like, 80, 20, 70, 30. Okay, yeah, yeah, M. But. But I will say this too. There’s this thing that E.J. and I picked up on it, like, two years in, and it’s called the messy middle. We were like, why? Like, everyone was doing so good, and then all of a sudden, this, like, massive regression. And I was like, what is it? And they’re like, we’re not coming back. And I’m like, what is that? So I finally, like, right. Family systems, homeostasis. Right. Even if it’s dysfunctional, people have been functioning like that for a really long time. So when homeostasis starts to get, um, shifted.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: There’s this unconscious need to go back to that dysfunction. And so I get really excited. I’m like, you guys, the moment you don’t want to come back, it’s usually around the intimacy section. I’m like, you’ve got to come back. That’s the messy middle. I have a whole page on it in the first session. Like when you guys don’t want to come back, that’s a total shift in homeostasis. It lasts a couple of weeks, and they’re. And most of them are like, oh, my gosh, you’re right. I’m like, you’re in the messy middle. This is a really good sign because their whole system is shifting. But it’s scary. Change is scary.

Andrea: Yes. Right.

Tarah: Yeah.

Andrea: Yes. And when you. With the infidelity piece, where there’s a real trust rupture and things like that happen, where they can feel like they’re making progress and then, ah, uh, kind of feeling like they’re back to the beginning and then the fears come online and, oh, no, what if. You know all of that? So I’m guessing it. It’s probably looks similar, but maybe, I don’t know, up a little bit. What do you think?

E.J.: I mean, certainly infidelity just puts a lot more gunpowder in the cannon. It’s just there’s. It’s just probably, you know, the most destabilizing event that can happen in a relationship because it’s built on that sort of, like, central, you know, agreement we make about fidelity.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: You know, is in, uh, most couples enter into a relationship where. Where fidelity is. Is the baseline. Yes. You know.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: So. So, uh, yeah. And it’s like, how do you rebuild from that? And how do you. Again, it’s kind of something we touched on when. When you are in our podcast was like, yeah, that fundamental fracture is never going away, you know, and especially if you don’t

00:35:00

E.J.: deal with it.

Tarah: Right. Yeah.

Andrea: So when you are working with people navigating infidelity, what do you think is the most important place to start with that? Like, right. When people work. Walk through your door. Like, for anybody listening who might be right in the throes of it, brand new, they. They recently found out. What do you think?

E.J.: I mean, uh, the first is what we already kind of talked about was just the framing of it as a trauma, but then a quick pivot to. Because really what you’re trying to help is find some level of stabilization. The fracturing event was the exposure of information, uh, of, uh. There was one person who had every right to know something that was hidden from them. And so then it’s. It’s like there has to be some level of commitment to really radical honesty.

Andrea: Yes.

E.J.: Uh, I’m so glad you said have to do as. As best you can to put everything on the table, because then at least the other person has the ability then to decide where they. Where they Want to go from there.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: And. And the. The most destabilizing thing is, I think you called it trickle truth.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: Love it.

E.J.: You know, was. Was like when there’s just. Every week or every two weeks, there’s another big piece of information that comes out.

Andrea: Yes.

E.J.: You know, like. Like, you know, opening up any, uh, any pathways of deception so that they. So. Or so that they can’t continue to go that direction.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Is. Is incredibly important. And having a space.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: Not at their house, not around their kids, you know, where. Where they can. Where it’s facilitated.

Andrea: Yes.

E.J.: Because a lot of times the one person who’s been betrayed doesn’t even know the questions to ask. And sometimes I find that I’m the one asking them.

Andrea: Right. Oh, uh, I love that you bring that up. I love. I could. I want to circle back with that. Like, I love that you brought that up because you talked about radical honesty and how it’s. It’s so crucial, like the trickle truth, how that is re. Traumatizing. Right. Again and again. But this piece of knowing the questions to ask, knowing they. They sometimes don’t know. And also. Also they’re coming into, even with this betrayal, with old patterns of maybe still of not feeling safe. Right. Of not feeling safe.

E.J.: Those.

Andrea: There’s different patterns that existed before the infidelity rupture. Right. And so they may still. Even in light of this thing that this bomb that they got dropped on them, they still might not feel like they can be radically honest in some of the things they want to say, some of the questions they want to ask. Is that something that you help too with is strengthening the person that’s been hurt to be able to say the things that they want to say or ask.

E.J.: I think we’re leaning heavily into something that we learned from Stan Tack, and he’s, uh, a mentor of ours, and we’ve gone on his couple retreats as a couple.

Andrea: Wonderful.

E.J.: Is this idea of justice, you know, is that, uh, really empowering the person who’s been betrayed, that. That, you know, you have every right here.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: You have every right to. To ask. To ask the questions, to. To stabilize yourself, to strive for some sense of empowerment in understanding what the heck happened.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: So I think it’s like a balance of just saying, like, you know, it’s okay.

Andrea: Yes, it’s okay.

E.J.: It’s okay to ask these questions. It’s okay to try to orient yourself to what’s actually happening.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: In your life. And then. And. And then kind of trying to get the person who has betrayed to co-sign on that.

Andrea: I love it.

E.J.: Uh, that if we create it as a framework and we say like this is important, beautiful person has the right. Are you willing to accept.

Andrea: Yes.

E.J.: That, uh, that. Yeah. That. That’s sort of like, that’s the position that, that, that, that you’re in. That you have to tear open the seal and there maybe, isn’t there something for you to gain here as well? And that you don’t have to like, you don’t have to be hiding seven layers of lies anymore.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: This is really your opportunity to just like drop it out.

Tarah: Totally.

Andrea: Yep.

E.J.: To put it out there and then see what happens. And that actually it’s counterintuitive probably to what you’re feeling. They’re like, oh my God, if I tell them this right. Then it’s really going to be over. Well, I’m

00:40:00

E.J.: here to tell you, based upon the experience, as a person who’s helped a lot of people in your situation, that actually it’s the very best thing you can do right now.

Andrea: Yes.

E.J.: For yourself and for them. Because if not, you’re, you are just going to continue in this framework of like, you’ve moved through life deceiving.

Andrea: Right. And, and uh, the impact on the individual to live that way.

Tarah: Right.

Andrea: We don’t talk about that as much. We talk about it more in a villain victim type mentality of like, you’re the one that’s out there lying. There’s a reason why they’re doing that. Right. There’s a reason why they’ve learned to cope that way. And it’s not good for them either. It’s not good for anyone.

E.J.: And so anytime.

Tarah: Right.

E.J.: Anytime you’re living against your own values.

Andrea: Yes.

E.J.: And there’s very few people who have a value that deception is, is, is what I like, you know, is the best way to live my life.

Andrea: Right, Right.

E.J.: Okay. I mean.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Incredibly small percentage.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: And so they’re suffering in that.

Andrea: Yeah, absolutely.

E.J.: Their suffering is just masked and.

Andrea: Yeah. And.

Tarah: And also we just like get that concept of like emotional safety. Yeah. Right. Like if you’re right, if the person who did the betraying is like full of like shame and defensiveness, like that is not gonna allow the space for the person who we’re triaging. Right. They’re bleeding profusely out. Like how. And so in session, I’m constantly like coaching, like, I gotta let you know, uh, and you tell me if I’m wrong. I don’t know if that’s helpful. Yeah. Like how do you have this? Like, we. I think it was in the Untethered Soul. Have you read that?

Andrea: Yes. Huh? Uh-huh. Is Michael Singer.

Tarah: Yes. With ears. And like, when your partner who has been betrayed, who has PTSD, who is, uh, symptoms and anxiety and hyper vigilance and anger, all of that, you’ve got to imagine your heart staying open, not a drawbridge, closing it and going back into your shame cycle. Like, put shame outside on a chair for right now. Because you have to be able. Like, I am here, like, no matter how uncomfortable this is, like, I’m here and in the moment, coaching them to do that because they won’t be able to do it when they’re not in your office. Right, right, right. And so it’s like a ton of coaching of, like, body posture safety. Like, if you guys want to be able to get through this together, you have to create emotional safety for this process to move through, or you guys are both going to just be recreating this trauma.

Andrea: And I will say, I think that what you just spoke to of that heart with ears, really being able to hear. I would venture to say that across the board, in every marriage, whether there’s infidelity or not, it’s a. It’s a tough thing, right. To kind of get over ourselves and our fears and our need to be. Right. Our need to be above any kind of reproach. Right? We all do this. We all have to learn how to do this. We. Right. It’s. It’s. I think it’s universal and it’s hard. I think it’s hard for everyone because of the deep dive of really seeing ourselves and seeing who we are and seeing the things that, uh. The good, bad and the ugly. Right? All the things. All the things. All the ways that we’ve learned to adapt and cope and. And being able to sit with that. Right? So I. I mentioned that just to say it’s not exclusive to infidelity. Like, it’s. That definitely amps things up in a different way. But I think it’s a kind of a universal challenge. Right? I mean, I know for me, I Even still, with all the work that I do and the people that I talk to, I have days where I notice myself. I’ll get defensive, and I’m like, oh, my gosh, what’s up with that? You know? Like. Right.

E.J.: Yeah. That’s a huge thing with men, man, because. Because we. We grow up from a young age being sort of taught in a culture that we are constantly having defend ourselves to be, uh, vulnerable to be open is to be weak.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: Right. And so we are just like, we are programmed for defensiveness to either always have our, uh, never let our walls down or to punch back first. So tough, you know? Yeah. And so, so it’s a complete realigning of. Of how to deal. And I struggle with it mightily, you know, all the time is Right.

Tarah: But you. But you know what’s so cool? So I was like, E.J. this. Because we hear it all the time. Yeah. We’ve been. We’ve seen thousands of couples and thousands of. He just, he’s starting this men’s called Men who do the Work. Uh, I’m like, I freaking love that. Like, I love that because it’s like it’s okay to do the work. But they’re so like. I mean, when I met E.J., I thought he was like this like, little Buddhist, like, oh my God. Like, he’s like the best therapist. I like would see him rock it with these like, eating disorder clients and teenagers. And he was like, phenomenal. And so when I started to like, notice his defensiveness and avoidance, I was like, how do you dare you like, not be like your pure Buddhist

00:45:00

Tarah: self, sir? And he was like, what are you talking about? Like, I had to like, dig in for years, Andrea. To have him see his avoidance. Uh, but I, I was like, I. I know he will see it one day.

E.J.: A lot of men mistake emotional sort of abandonment as regulation.

Andrea: Oh my gosh, I’m so glad you said that. Yeah.

E.J.: They see that. They, they. They’re like, oh, I’m okay. Like, I don’t. Oh my goodness, lose my. But really there, it’s. It’s a total defense mechanism of shutting

Andrea: down emotionally and calling it regulating. Yeah.

E.J.: Like, or ration. Uh, the big thing is like, I’m just. I. I’m just being rational. I’m just trying to stay rest.

Andrea: So glad you said that. Oh, uh, my m. Gosh. Right.

Tarah: Oh man.

Andrea: It’s not helpful or noble then. Actually I want to head for the hills right now.

Tarah: Right.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: And women interpret that as a lack of safety.

Andrea: Yeah.

E.J.: And they oftentimes see through. Totally seen as hostility.

Andrea: Yes. Yeah.

E.J.: That would be the thing that would confuse me with Tarah is she’d be like, you are unsafe.

Andrea: Mhm.

E.J.: And I would be like, what the are you talking. I’m sorry. What the heck? What the heck are you talking about? Yeah. And. And it was like a really hard thing to look at of like, actually in those moments. I’m judging you. I’m. I’m Punishing you and it. But I. I wasn’t even aware of it. I really wasn’t. And, uh, now.

Tarah: You’re welcome.

E.J.: I’m pretty good. Thank you. Yeah. I’m pretty good, though now. I see it like. Like we had a couple moments this week where, like, where that were difficult, but I felt like I was. I’m getting so much better. It’s almost becoming my go to. To stay empathetic and present heart with ears instead of shutting down and judging. I think a lot of men judge their partners and don’t cop to it.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: And maybe aren’t even totally aware of it.

Andrea: Oh, thank, uh, you for talking so freely about this because, you know, we’re all doing the best we can and we all have our blind spots. Right. And we need. We need people who love us enough to. To say, hey, like, hey, this doesn’t work. Hey, this is not okay with me. And hopefully, like, you just shared with us like, that you looked inward and we’re like, oh, what’s that about? Right?

Tarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea: And it often is how. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, E.J..

E.J.: Well, and I was just saying I have empathy for myself and for the men I work with. That, um, there’s some pretty good reasons I had those coping skills.

Andrea: Of course. Of course there are. Right. And because it’s probably been there, I mean, in your own work, where do you think you picked that up? Like, how old do you think you were when you started? Kind of.

E.J.: I mean, I had a psychodrama in a session once that I was. I was taking it to learn about it, but you kind of do your own personal work.

Tarah: Okay.

E.J.: And I. It was four.

Tarah: Four. Oh, four.

E.J.: It was four. I know that, like, people who aren’t therapists think, like, that’s crazy woo woo stuff, but it was real.

Andrea: Right.

E.J.: I learned it in. In a moment. Four years old child at four years old.

Andrea: So of course, like. Of course, like, that was. It’s so ingrained that it feels more like an identity than this thing that. This behavior. Right.

E.J.: And so I didn’t come into the world with that. No, I wasn’t. I wasn’t born with that.

Andrea: Yeah. But it takes some work to know that. Right?

E.J.: Yeah.

Andrea: To see that. Amazing. Yeah. Oh, that’s. I love that you shared that because I see this. This space where people are really trying to learn the skills of. Okay. Taking a time out. Like this safe word.

Tarah: Yeah.

Andrea: Code word. Yeah, yeah, Code word. Slowing down the conversation. And sometimes it can look like I’m out. And this is. Right. I’m Out. And then exactly what you talked about. Right. It’s not quite. Not quite. Like, calling you out on that. That’s not quite it. Right. Yeah. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Okay, so let’s, uh, bring this to a close here pretty quick. But before. Before we do a couple things I want to hear from you. What’s your favorite thing about what you do? What brings you the most joy in what you do?

Tarah: It’s like that moment where you can. It’s like that. It’s like a shift. It’s like when I’m sitting across from a couple, and you feel their pain, and it’s just. You can feel it. Uh, like, my heart races for them. And then, like, that moment where that compassion for the other person shines again, and it’s like they melt into each other. Like, it’s like, that is why we do this. Like, I mean, we have had difficult, difficult, difficult sessions. And that moment, I’m like, oh, of course I’m gonna continue to do this. I’ll never forget the very first one. And they were in the. We looked outside of our window, and they were hugging in the parking lot, and I was like, oh, my gosh. Uh, like, it was like he was this, like, tall man, and he was a big. A lawyer, and he kind of bullied

00:50:00

Tarah: people at work. I made him really good. He’d do that with his wife and his girls. And we were like, is that. That’s not helping. Like, you have to have, like, a different type of, like, Right. Uh, you know, mode when you come home. And, like, he was like, I didn’t even. But I’m so successful at work. We’re like, yeah, but how is it going here? And not good. And remember, like, that shift. And, like, from there on, like, that was one of our very first couples. They, like, rocked that work just takes a little shift of compassion and, like. Oh. And the biggest thing is, like, they’re usually suffering and feeling the same things, like, disconnected, not belonging. But they. Their. Their symptoms and behaviors are so different.

Andrea: Yeah.

Tarah: That when they get to that shared space, that they both feel alone in this, and they’re struggling, and they can see the other person as human, and. Oh, my God, you’re not this done. Okay, sorry. I could go on and, um.

Andrea: Right. I get you, though. That’s great.

Tarah: Thank you.

Andrea: Thank you.

E.J.: Uh, for. For me, it’s that I believe that relationships are the first building block of community. You know, it’s like the. It is the. It is the. The. The first and fundamental coupling that Builds a community, you know, that. That if we can help these two people be kinder, more wise, more loving in their relationship than their family, their kids.

Tarah: Yeah.

E.J.: Ah, are healthier. And then. And then from there, those kids go to school healthier, and those people go out and do their jobs healthier. And that. It’s just like. It is a. It’s an because. Because our society is built upon interaction, you know, interpersonal relationships. And so this one, I think, is a really. It’s a great contact point to. To. To spread wellness into the world.

Andrea: Beautiful. I love it too. I love it, too. And I just. Circling back to what you said earlier, it’s not even about them staying or going necessarily. It’s the. It’s what they’re growing into on the way.

Tarah: Right.

Andrea: And then. Right. Like, you get to bring that with you wherever you land. Right. Beautiful. Oh, I love it. The next question is, if my audience wants to learn more from you, where can they find you?

E.J.: I mean, the. The easiest entry point is relationshiprenovation.com.

Andrea: okay.

E.J.: Just our website. From there, you can learn about global coaching. You can learn about my men’s group I’m doing, if you happen to be in Tucson, our, uh, podcast, our YouTube. I mean, everything is sort of housed within there. And, you know, obviously our podcast just, you know, relationship renovation podcast, you can find that as well.

Andrea: Wonderful. All right, is there any last wisdom that you’d love to impart upon our listeners today? Anything they can glean some hope from?

Tarah: Just so, uh, like you, in our intimate relationships, we can truly grow into, like, the best versions of ourselves again, regardless if we stay together or not. Like, I. If I didn’t take all these triggers in this relationship and really try to learn and grow from them, like, I would. I would be a shell of the person that I am right now. Yeah. And it’s so. It’s freedom. It’s like freedom. Empowering freedom.

Andrea: Beautiful.

E.J.: I’ll co-sign on it.

Tarah: Oh, you’re going to cosign on that? Okay.

Andrea: Co-sign.

Tarah: Uh, all right. Not letting you go first because your answers are better than mine. Imposter syndrome.

Andrea: I love it. They want to add anything, or is that.

E.J.: No, I think she nailed it.

Andrea: Okay, wonderful. All right, well, thank you so much. I’ve loved talking with you both today, and I know that my audience will feel that. I do. You’re just a breath of fresh air. Just. It’s been a wonderful, delightful conversation. So thank you so much.

E.J.: Yeah, so nice to meet you.

Andrea: You too. Thank you. Thank you. For listening to the Heal from Infidelity podcast. If you would like to be kept in the know about upcoming free classes, new podcast episodes, and other ways of working with me, go subscribe to my weekly email. You can subscribe at ah. Andreagiles.com lies-about-infidelity forward slash. Again, it’s andreagiles.com lies about-infidelity forward slash I will see you next time.