Andrea:

I’m Andrea Giles, and you’re listening to The Heal from Infidelity podcast,
episode number 180, Loss, Grief and Rebirth with Julie Cluff.

Hello and welcome to the Heal from Infidelity podcast where courageous
women learn not only to heal from their spouse’s betrayal, but to become
the boldest, truest, most decisive and confident versions of themselves
ever. If you know there’s more for you than the life you’re currently
living but don’t quite know how to get there, you are in the right place.
Stick around to learn how to create a life that will knock your own socks
off. Is it possible? It is. And I’m here to show you how I’m your host,
Andrea Giles. Are you ready? Let’s dive in.

Hello, beautiful listeners. You are in for a treat today. I, for a while
have wanted to have this guest on my podcast. I’ve known her for a while
and have been inspired from her from the day I met her. And you are about
to find out why. This is somebody that has been to hell and back in some
very big ways. And in this episode, she’s going to share with you her story.
I wanted to bring her on because even though we did not touch on infidelity
a whole lot, she has so much to teach. She has so much wisdom to give that
I wanted to share with you today. I wanted you to have another example of
how the hardest things that we can possibly endure, the things that we
think that we’re not going to come back from, that are going to break us,
can totally transform us if we let them.

I can’t think of a better example than this person that I brought on this
friend. She’s a wonderful coach and leader, Julie Cluff. And before we go
to that, I invite you to apply for my Get Your Life Back After Infidelity
Program. There truly has never been a time more powerful than now to be in
this space. It is just growing and the people that are coming in are so
powerful. You’ll be so inspired just by being in the room with everybody
else, and your own future is going to open up to you in a way that you
can’t even see right now. So go apply in the show notes and we’ll see you
inside. And in the meantime, please enjoy this interview with Julie Cluff.
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode. As mentioned in the
introduction today, I have a very special guest, somebody that from the
very first time I met her and heard her story, she made an impression. And
Julie, I don’t know if you know that, but it’s true, and you’ve always
stood out to me. And as somebody who has so much strength and so much
courage, and that has overcome some really, really challenging things, and
I wanted to bring Julie on. First of all, hello Julie. Welcome to the Heal
from Infidelity podcast. Welcome, welcome.

Julie:

Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. So excited to be reconnected with
you.

Andrea:

You too. You too. Thank you. So Julie and I we’re both in the coaching
space. We’ve rubbed shoulders at different events and things like that. So
wonderful to have you here. Julie is a hope and grief coach. She works with
people who have experienced a lot of loss. And the reason I wanted to bring
Julie on today is, for one, you just need to hear her story. You need to
hear from Julie. She is a well of wisdom and life experience and taking
things that would take a lot of people down and turning them into, oh, I
don’t know that I want to say gifts, but into the resilience, the ability
to reach out to other people and help them is so inspiring. And so Julie, I
want to just go ahead and will you just tell my audience about you? Just
tell them who you are and about your life and what has made you who you
are.

Julie:

Oh, wow. Well, that would take a long time but let me just start with thank
you for that beautiful introduction. When we talked, you had really wanted
me to share my experience. I want to take everybody back to a sunny day on
Mother’s Day in 2007, and I was loading up my three youngest children for a
trip across country. We lived in Texas at the time, and I was driving to my
in-law’s house for a little bit of a week’s vacation with my three youngest
children. So I have three children from my first marriage and three from my
second marriage. And we all lived as one big happy family because my first
husband had left the country, wasn’t really connected with the kids, but at
any rate, I was taking the three youngest because they were available to
go. Everybody else had work or school or something. And so we were driving
across country and we got halfway through our day, halfway to our
destination that day. And I fell asleep at the wheel. And the crazy thing
about that is I never felt tired that whole day. I never had one moment of
feeling drowsy.

Andrea:

Wow.

Julie:

I wasn’t even trying to fight back drowsiness, but I woke up bouncing along
the median and between the westbound and eastbound lanes at the border of
Alabama and Mississippi of all the crazy things. And when I tried to pull
my SUV back up on the highway, the wheels lifted off the ground and we
rolled across two lanes of highway. We rolled into the grass onto the other
side. And when the car stopped rolling, I knew that my life had changed
forever. When the car stopped rolling, I could hear my son James, who is 12.
I could hear him crying in the front seat. And also just to let you know, I
couldn’t see anything When the car stopped rolling.

It’s like I came back from being blacked out or something. Not quite sure
what happened in all of that, but I couldn’t see anything so I could hear
him, which was relieving. But I was calling for Carrie and David, and there
wasn’t an answer. And as my eyesight returned and I looked around and I saw
all that destruction, and I couldn’t find Carrie and David, and then I
noticed them what felt like a football field away from the car. They had
been thrown from the car. And unfortunately, they passed away that day.
They died that day. And it was beyond devastating. There are no words for
the devastation of that experience. And I cry, not because I cry now, but
because remembering that Julie, who was in so much pain for so long, I have
so much compassion for her and love for her. And where she was in that
space and feeling like not only had she destroyed her life and destroyed
because I literally was screaming in the car. I killed my kids. I killed my
kids. And I think about my 12-year-old son sitting in the seat next to me,
and I am just like, that makes me sad too,

That he experienced that. But there were so many miracles that happened
too. And I always liked to share that from the beginning. I’ve always
shared the amazing things that happened that day that made no sense. And
one was that as the car was rolling, I heard a voice in my head that said,
bring your arm in. And somehow I had the presence of mind to bring my left
arm in. And it was just a couple months later, I learned about a woman who
had lost her arm in a rollover accident. And two years after that, I met
another woman who had lost her arm in a rollover accident.

So even though my children had died, somehow my arm was saved, which
doesn’t make a lot of sense. My perspective now is changed a lot, but that
made no sense. There were so many miraculous things that happened along the
way. The other thing that happened is when we got to the hospital, so my
12-year-old son and I need to go back and honor my children who passed
because I realized I don’t think that I shared my daughter Carrie was 10.
She was a delightful, tender-hearted girl who loved her friends and
everyone loved her. She had this incredible ability to wrap her arms around
anybody. She was the one that everyone would come back to me afterwards and
say, she made me feel like I belonged. If there was a kid that had moved
into the neighborhood that felt out of place, she was the one that I
received those messages all the time, and that was who she was. And then my
son David was eight. And oh my goodness, you know that, I don’t know if you
remember the book, no, David? No. Or something like that.

Andrea:

Yep, I sure do.

Julie:

That book was written about my day.

Andrea:

Oh, I love it. I love it.

Julie:

Yes. He was full of life. And I remember my mother-in-law used to say all
the time, she’s like, his spirit is too big for his body. I thought that
was so funny the way that she would say that. And looking back now, I’m
like, I think she is exactly right, but very independent, very gregarious,
very friendly, very active. I just was like, when is he going to the
toddler stage when they’re getting into everything? He’s eight, still
getting into everything. When is he going to outgrow this? Anyway, he’s
delightful. We have so many funny David stories that we still love to
share. So those are my children who died that day, and they’re wonderful.
And they’re still with me, and I want to acknowledge that as well. But our
son, James, who was injured in the accident, he had a pretty severe injury
to his leg. And it was Mother’s Day. It was a Sunday. And I overheard some
people at the hospital talking about, why is Dr. Rush here? How come Dr.
Rush is here? Well, let me give you a little bit of background on Dr. Rush.
Dr. Rush had developed the procedure. My son needed to save his leg.

Andrea:

Wow.

Julie:

So my son went into surgery, and Dr. Rush was absolutely a hundred percent
an earthly angel to our family

Because not only did he, and not only did he, and the hospital was named
after his family, it’s nuts. But not only did he save my son’s leg and help
that leg become very healthy, and he doesn’t have any problems with it
today. But not only did he do that, but he advocated for our family all
along the way. There were times at which there was disagreement in the
hospital as to whether or not our son could be released from the hospital.
We needed to get back to Houston for a funeral. There was a lot going on,
and he was an absolute angel and advocated for our family all along the way
and made it possible for us to get home and to start taking care of
arrangements needed to happen there. So I just want to send love and
appreciation to all those angels in the hospital and all along our journey.
But it was extremely painful. But here’s the interesting thing. I can
remember exactly where I was sitting. I was in my backyard, sitting in my
backyard, and I remember I was reflecting on when I had lost my brother to
suicide, which was some, I’m trying to think it was 18 years before or
something like that. And when I had gone through a divorce from my first
husband, which was again, 16 years before this happened, and I remembered
how devastating those events were for me. And somehow I had come back from
them.

And I remember sitting in the backyard thinking, if I was able to do it
before, is it possible that I could live a happy life again? Sometime after
losing my two kids, which is a crazy thought to have. This was within two
weeks of their passing. I’m still in a cast. I still have black eyes from
the accident. And I’m sitting here thinking, is there any way to heal this
broken heart?

Andrea:

Wow.

Julie:

But I can tell you the next three years was not proof that I could heal my
broken heart. I went through hell and back, absolutely went through hell.
And back the first few months, because I was familiar with grief, because
of that understanding at some level of my own grief, I understood that it
was going to be hard. And I didn’t put myself in any pressure. I was like
just existing doing the best I could,

Andrea:

Just letting it be hard,

Julie:

Just letting it be hard. But about a year and a half later, and I call this
the messy middle, you’re in the middle where things start to, your head’s
coming out of the cloud a little bit, but you’re not there. And so from
that perspective, my head coming out of the clouds, all I could see was I’m
a mess and I need to figure my life out. And so in the middle of that, I
started to beat myself up. I started to have expectations. I started to,
and I will say not long after the kids passed away, we went to a therapy
session with a therapist that we only saw this one time, but in that therapy
session, again, it’s been a month since my kids died, and in that therapy
session, and I don’t remember everything he said, but he did most of the
talking. And at one point he said, you can decide to be happy.

Andrea:

Wow.

Julie:

Now, do I believe that’s true? Yes. Was the timing correct?

Andrea:

Right. No. Yeah, absolutely.

Julie:

And so in my mind, at that year and a half point, I’m like, oh my gosh, I
can’t figure out how to be happy.

Andrea:

And feeling bad for it. Yeah.

Julie:

And so then I already have guilt and shame and grief, and now I’m heaping
more on top of it, more pain on top of that because I could not get my act
together. And I spiraled further down the tube, and I was in continuous
thoughts of how can I leave this life?

Andrea:

Just be done?

Julie:

Just be done. I was like, can’t. When we have to forgive someone that we’re
not always with, that’s one thing. But I lived with the person I had to

Andrea:

Forgive,

Julie:

And that was excruciating. It was absolutely excruciating. I could not
figure it out. And I judged myself for every little thing. I was so overly,
I don’t know if overly concerned, I think it’s very, as I’ve worked with
people, this is very common. What I’ve noticed is that, and this was my
experience, if I showed up kind of acting like I was happy, then I felt bad
because I thought, oh, people will think I didn’t love my children.

Andrea:

But

Julie:

If I showed up how I was really feeling really super sad, then I would feel
like, oh, they’re looking at me. I’m going to fall apart. And that’s not
acceptable. But I was falling apart. I was falling apart. And during this
time, I did seek therapy. I did EMDR, which was helpful in helping me
overcome my PTSD. It wasn’t like I was sitting around not trying to get
help. I was actively doing things to try to bring some balance to my life,
but it was super challenging. So

Andrea:

What was it that helped you turn a corner, so to speak?

Julie:

I think it was all of those things looking back, and I don’t know that I
recognized it at the time, but looking back, I really was in all the
quadrants of balance in life as far as I was exercising, which was a great
release for me. I was playing tennis, so I had this friend group, this
social group that I was spending a lot of time with. I was pursuing my
spiritual life as well. During this time. I was seeking help. I was feeding
my mind. I was doing a lot of good things. And I think all those things
helped and created a foundation for what came next. Now, I don’t know if
you’re familiar with Byron Katie, but I love her story and how she just
dealt with this tremendous clinical depression in a mental hospital. And
one day she just woke up and it was like the lights went on, and she had a
totally different understanding. That’s kind of what happened to me. And
some of this was very connected to prayer and a special prayer that was
given, and the lights went on, and within 24 hours, I was a different
person.

Andrea:

Wow. Wow. Tell us more.

Julie:

Yeah. And that didn’t mean that I was a hundred percent healed. I was out
of that deep, deep, deep fog, because before that happened, the darkness
had become tangible.

Andrea:

I believe that I was.

Julie:

Tangible. I was living with this demon inside of me, for lack of a better
word. And that lifted. And I’m so grateful for the things that I did before
that happen, because I had some structures in place. So I had my friend
group, and I had my exercise, and I had my spiritual practices, and I had
all these things were kind of in place, but I was doing them from a place
of deep darkness.

Now I was able to continue those practices, which brought me forward with
my healing. But it was a night and day thing. So that was three years,
almost to the day, honestly. And I just felt, like I said, felt like a
totally different person in 2000. So that was 2010. So in 2012, I met
somebody. My mom introduced me to somebody, and we were visiting, and I
heard his story, and my mom asked me to share my story, and I told him,
losing my kids and all this. And at that point in my life, I am used to
telling about it now. But at that point, I was like, I don’t want to tell
that, but my mom’s like, tell him your story, Julie. And I’m like, okay. So
I tell him reluctantly, and we were having lunch, and as we walked out of
the restaurant, he grabbed me by the arm and he said, you’re supposed to do
something with this.

Andrea:

Wow.

Julie:

And it was literally lightning bolt. God had stood in front of me and said
that it would’ve felt the same. It was,

Andrea:

You knew.

Julie:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Yep.

Julie:

But I didn’t know what that was. So I went on this search for what is this?
What am I supposed to do with this? I don’t know. And I’d had some inklings
like that. I kept thinking about things like that, but I would always talk
myself out of it. I’m like, I don’t have anything really to share. I don’t
have anything. I don’t have anything to add to this or whatever. I
actually, at one point in my search of what this was, I knew I just knew.
And my soul, this was my soul calling me forward. I knew, and I actually,
at one point, I enrolled in college to go back to school to become a
therapist. And that first week of school, I sat there and I went, I am not
in the right place. But once again, and I almost feel like I needed to have
that experience so that I wasn’t always questioning Should I have gone back
to school?

Andrea:

I’m only smiling, and my listeners can’t see me smiling, but I’m smiling
because we have such parallels in our story. It’s interesting. I also went
back to school to be a therapist. I knew in the depths of the hardest times
that I was in that I needed to get through this thing. I didn’t know how
and then be able to reach my hand back and help other people. And I thought
it was, I’m like, okay, well, I guess this is what I’ll do. So it’s just
funny to hear the similarities. Carry on, carry on. And then when

Julie:

I met another woman who went the opposite direction, she started looking at
coaching and then realized she was supposed to become a therapist.

Andrea:

Interesting.

Julie:

Interesting. Yeah.

Andrea:

We all have our path.

Julie:

We all have our path, totally. And we need to honor that path. That is my
biggest thing now, is just recognizing that especially as women, a lot of
times in the past, society has not supported us in following our heart. And
each individual is here for a reason and here for, and when I say a reason,
it doesn’t have to be a big reason. It’s the little things, the little
things and the big things. And it’s following your heart,

Andrea:

Doing

Julie:

The things that light you up.

Andrea:

And I think that with that, if there’s anybody listening that is going,
well, I don’t necessarily want to go on the road with my story, or I don’t
want to do this. I think that the biggest impact that we can have is
working with ourselves and learning how to love ourselves and giving
ourselves, learning how to love ourselves, learning how to give ourselves
compassion. Because what that does is we then give everyone else around us
permission to do the same. And is there anything that’s more impactful than
that? Something my clients hear me say a lot is the work that they’re doing
is changing generations. It’s generational healing, but forwards and
backwards of taking these patterns that we’ve been handed and that we don’t
know any better to do, we don’t know any better. And then we have this
crisis that brings us to our knees to go, I can’t keep going the way that I
am. I just don’t know another way. And they’re doing the work of learning
another way. Is there anything more impactful or more courageous? I don’t
think so.

Julie:

I cannot agree with that more, a hundred percent. In fact, people will
often hear me saying, everyone should go through a divorce because I
learned so much about myself and to stand up for myself and to be my own
person and to respect my own desires, my own wishes, my own path. One of the
first clients I ever coached, and this was not in the grief space, but she
was sharing with me how her dream was to open a local theater, like a live
play musical theater. And I, I’m like, it hit me again like a lightning
bolt. I said to her, I said, do you know how many times I’ve thought about
opening a local theater?

Andrea:

Wow.

Julie:

Exactly. Zero.

Andrea:

Oh, wow. Yeah.

Julie:

We’re sitting here on computers because somebody felt this draw to create
the computer. This isn’t about everybody. And I say this all the time too,
it’s like not everyone’s meant to stand up in front of people and say, Hey,
this is what happened to me, and this is how, that was my calling. That was
my direction. But everyone, everybody’s soul is pulling them forward to
healing and the healing that you do. I don’t know if you’re familiar with
Dr. David Hawkins work. He has what he called the levels of consciousness.
It’s a graph just very briefly. It’s just showing these levels of
consciousness from shame and despair to enlightenment. And he is assigned
numerical numbers to each of these frequencies of these different emotions.
And grief is down in the expanded emotions. Shame, grief, guilt, fear. All
of this is, or sorry, contracted.

Andrea:

Contracted, okay.

Julie:

Contracted consciousness.

Andrea:

Okay.

Julie:

You’ll often see his scale pictured as a funnel.

Andrea:

Cool.

Julie:

And so at the bottom of that scale, the contracted emotions, the contracted
states of being, are below courage. And then above courage, we have the
love and the peace and the joy and enlightenment and so forth. But it’s
courage that bridges the gap.

Andrea:

So cool. So cool.

Julie:

And I love that so much. And one of the things that he shares, and this is
not to discourage someone who’s in the middle of the depth of the despair,
because that is a real place to be. And I often say that grief is part of
the healing. It’s not the place to land forever, but it’s not the problem.
It’s part of the solution. It’s the pain that causes us to seek other
answers.

Andrea:

It’s

Julie:

The pain that causes us to seek someone like you, Andrea, who can help them
through the challenges of a marriage that hasn’t succeeded in our eyes of
society. And so pain has its purpose. Imagine if you broke your ankle and
you didn’t feel pain. You’d keep running on it.

Andrea:

And do more damage.

Julie:

And do more damage. So the pain causes us to slow down. It causes us to
seek the help that we need. It causes us to take the time and the space and
get the resources we need for healing. It’s the same with our emotional
healing. So if you’re in this space of grief, allowing ourselves to that
self-compassion, like having that self-compassion for ourselves and
allowing us to just be where we are, instead of heaping additional pain on
top of that, I think I shouldn’t be here. I’m grieving too long because
we’re going to have people say two different things. What I’ve found in
grief is we’ll have people saying to us, you’re still not over that. Or
they’ll be saying, oh, you’re going to grieve that forever. That’s what
happens for a mom who’s lost two kids. Every time somebody hears that
story, they’re like, oh, you’re going to grieve forever. No, I don’t grieve
So fascinating. We

Andrea:

Need

Julie:

To redefine. We need new words. Because when I think of grief, I think of
that unrelenting pain that just doesn’t go away and move. And society has
told us that grief doesn’t change. We just grow around it.

Andrea:

Well,

Julie:

I’m going to reclaim that dark space inside, and I’m not going to sit with
the grief inside me. I’m going to reclaim that space. I often talk about it
this way. Have you ever moved and you move into a new place and you unpack
your underwear and you unpack your silverware and your dishes, and then you
get to a place where I’m comfortable.

Andrea:

Yes. And then it sits there forever boxes sitting,

Julie:

And that’s what happens, right? We’ve gotten moved in enough that we’re
comfortable. Well, now let’s claim that space that has all the boxes that
are still wrapped up, that are space isn’t usable. The stuff that’s in
there is not usable. When we go in there and we reclaim that space, we give
ourselves a gift. We expand our soul. I often say that before my kids died,
I was asleep. When they died, I died, and then I awoke.

Andrea:

Wow. So powerful. So powerful. I’m a

Julie:

Different person than I was before, of course. But sometimes people think
that when something bad happens and they’re a different person, that they
can never be, you’re never going to go back. I really kind of dislike the
idea of, oh, what’s the word I’m looking for? Oh, shoot. I can’t bring it
up. Starts with an R. Resilience. I don’t like the idea of resilience
because it’s almost like we can be stretched out and bounce back and we’re
in the same place, but that’s never what happens.

I had this beautiful image that came to me when I was talking to someone
the other day, and this person that I was talking to has gone through a lot
of painful experiences in her life. And what I was shown, because I tend to
get a lot of messages from the other side, what she was sharing with me was
that people would say to her all the time, like, oh, you have so much
light. You bring so much to the space. And she’s like, sometimes they’re
saying that I’ve just shown up for a gym class and barely crawled out of
bed. And sometimes they’re saying that as night and I’m super tired. What I
was shown was the ocean. It was like a cross of the ocean. And that she had
this depth, this depth because she had claimed the space. And so it’s like
on the top of the water, she could be tired, have all this movement going
on up here because she’s either tired or she is whatever, grumpy because of
something happened. But the depth of her soul, because of her healing,
brings light to every space that she goes to. And that’s part of what Dr.
Hawkins talks about. He’s like, when we heal, when we allow ourselves to be
in that space of healing, that we balance out. And the number is crazy, but
700,000 people who are unhealed.

Andrea:

With our energy,

Julie:

With our energy. And if you look up the scale, what’s really important to
recognize is those numbers on the scale are exponents. Linear numbers 10 to
the power of 50 versus 10 to the power of 300 versus exponential,

Andrea:

Exponential,

Julie:

Exponential. So it’s really fascinating. But I want to go back to this idea
of the ocean and the depth of the ocean, because what I saw was it’s like a
crane coming in. Something happens and it just disrupts our whole being and
who we are. And when that happens, you can see the dirt and the water and
the turmoil and in that space. But when we go in and do this work, we’re
healing that space and we are claiming that depth.

Andrea:

I love that so much. And I love the imagery of that. First of all, such a
beautiful thing to see. Also, I have lots of people come to me that they
got their hearts broken. They found out about infidelity 20 years ago, 30
years ago. And they are at a place now where they know that the pain of
that is still running the show, or people who use it as a reason to continue
to distrust or to duck away from intimacy. And what you’re describing is,
and what I think is so profound about this is we have these experiences
that just shatter us, that just bring us to our knees, that blow up our
space, that just destructive. And for so many of my clients, myself
included, when going through all of that, it just felt like the world as I
knew it wasn’t the world that I thought was no longer and I couldn’t go
back. There wasn’t going back. And this work here and the opportunity to
take this thing that has rocked your world and to go deep with it and to
excavate and to understand ourselves in a way that I believe that I can say
this for me. I’ve had multiple clients say this as well. They don’t know
that anything else would’ve gotten their attention.

It had to be big. It had to be so disruptive that it made them pause and
go, I cannot keep doing things the way that I do them, that it won’t work
here. And that’s kind of what you’re describing, is going back and claiming
that space. And the thing about it is, no one can do it for you. You can
have assistance. You can have assistance, but it’s ownership of, this is my
space, and what am I going to do with it?

Julie:

Yeah. You’re moving into a whole new territory.

Andrea:

You are. It’s a transformation. It’s a transformation.

Julie:

A hundred percent. It requires growth. The foundation is gone. So it’s a
need to build a new foundation.

Andrea:

Such a powerful conversation. If you have any words of wisdom that you’d
like to share with my people who are in that messy middle, I know that
there are so many listening that can relate to that piece of, well, why am
I not further along than I am? It’s been this much time, so why am I still
here? And what would you say to them?

Julie:

Well, kind of what we talked about before is what is your practice of
self-compassion? How can you get curious about what you’re experiencing?
And can you introduce in small doses, joy into your life? It’s almost like
when we go through these really, really painful, excruciating experiences,
a whole new record starts playing that’s all about pain. And we get
disconnected from our joy and we have to relearn it. It’s like somebody who
has an illness and comes out of that unable to walk, and they have to learn
to walk

Andrea:

Again.

Julie:

And that’s basically what’s happening. Go through a practice of learning
joy again in little ways. So honor the pain that you’re experiencing, but
also recognize when you have those moments of joy, it just kind of peaks
through kind of unexpected. You’re watching your kids play, or you see a
beautiful flower bed, or it’s the little things, and you notice this. Let
your heart go there. Let your heart go there and let your heart sit there
for a moment and be there because our human brain wants to cycle in the
pain. But we have an opportunity to use that machine, which is our brain,
to begin to cycle in the joy and relearn joy. And that’s an important part
of the process, is not actually, the image that’s coming to my mind right
now is we’ve sat in the dark so long that the light is painful, and we’ve
got to acclimate to the light.

Andrea:

We have to squint, and it kind of burns. It’s too bright. Yep. I love that.
And I will add, just going off of what was said earlier about what you said
about the way that you became, you died, and then you really learned living
life,

Being alive and bringing consciousness to it all. It’s choosing it and
consciously choosing it. It cannot be done any other way. Right. Being
conscious and really owning, like you said, claiming that space, deciding
what you want your life to be. And my own experience, and my experience of
so many, and I’m sure that you can relate to this with the people you’ve
worked with, is that it’s so paradoxical, but true that often we experience
more joy on the other side because we have the depth. We can hold more of
all of it. We can hold more and experience more, and it’s more potent. What
a gift.

Julie:

Yeah. It’s a beautiful gift.

Andrea:

It

Julie:

Doesn’t feel good during the excavation.

Andrea:

No,

Julie:

But it’s amazing once the building, the healing has happened.

Andrea:

Yes. Yes. Well, Julie, where can my listeners learn more from you?

Julie:

The easiest place to go is JulieCluff.com. That will take you to all the
different things. It’s still a little bit under construction at this
moment, but it’ll take you all the different things.

Andrea:

But

Julie:

I also have a website, build a life after loss.com, and there’s three
resources there as well.

Andrea:

Wonderful. Wonderful. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I
know I got a lot out of just visiting with you. I love these deep
conversations that are so real and talking about the real pain that people
are in and the real possibilities when we kind of choose to meet it. Right.
Choose to meet it and go and see what’s in it and where we can go with it.
And again, your journey has always really touched me, and I’m just really
honored to have you here today. So thank you, Julie, for your time and for
your wisdom.

Julie:

Thank you. And it’s an honor to be here, and I honor the work that you’re
doing. It’s amazing. It’s been amazing to watch all the great influence
that you’re putting out there.

Andrea:

Thank you.

Julie:

Helping women reclaim their life.

Andrea:

Thank you so much. Thank you, Julie. Thank you for listening to the Heal
from Infidelity podcast. If you would like to be kept in the know about
upcoming free classes, new podcast episodes, and other ways of working with
me, go subscribe to my weekly email. You can subscribe at
https://andreagiles.com/lies-about-infidelity/. Again, it’s

3 Biggest Lies About Infidelity

. I will see you next time.