Andrea: I’m Andrea Giles, and you’re listening to the Heal from Infidelity podcast, episode number 210, How to Get More Sleep After Infidelity with Yana Vriesinga.

Hello and welcome to the Heal from Infidelity podcast, where courageous women learn not only to heal from their spouse’s betrayal, but to become the boldest, truest, most decisive and confident versions of themselves ever. If you know there’s more for you than the life you’re currently living but don’t quite know how to get there, you are in the right place. Stick around to learn how to create a life that will knock your own socks off. Is it possible? It is. And I’m here to show you how. I’m your host, Andrea Giles. Are you ready? Let’s dive in.

Hi, everybody. Before we jump into today’s episode that I know you will want to listen to, why? Because I know that you struggle with sleep. Many of you, so many of you after infidelity have trouble not being able to rest, have trouble shutting the brain down, getting images out of mind. And this guest that I’m bringing on is an expert in all of this through. She learned it through her own experience and then turned it into going and getting certified in all the different sleep issues and is here to help you with them today. Before I jump into that, I want to make sure you know that this coming week, at the time of this recording, this coming week on October 7th, I’m hosting a virtual retreat. It’s going to be all day. It’s all with the focus of coming home to yourself, with understanding what that feels like and loving on and understanding all the versions of you before so you can feel more at home with yourself. We are going to be doing a deep dive into some of the most tricky emotions that we can feel after infidelity. As we start to get a better understanding of the whole picture, we can first be really, really angry at them. And then we can start seeing how we kind of shut off really important parts of ourself and where we maybe muted ourselves, where we maybe didn’t call out the things that we saw or where we really were not taking good care of ourself, things like that. And we’re going to be doing some deep dives into some of the most intense emotions that my clients face after infidelity. One of them is shame, guilt, regret. These are all things that many of you listening probably are familiar with. We’re going to be going deep into those and into settling into what it feels like to Live at home in our own body. It’s going to be amazing and powerful. You don’t want to miss it. Go grab your spot in the show notes. Know that if you can’t be there for the whole day, the whole entire thing is recorded. You can watch the replay whenever you want. All right, so without further ado, let’s go ahead and welcome on my guest and, uh, hope that this helps you get some better sleep. And quick. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of heal from infidelity. Today I have a very special guest on someone that is going to be talking about an issue that is so, so common after infidelity, which is not being able to sleep post infidelity insomnia. And I brought an expert on today to talk about this. So delighted to have you on. Yana Friesinga, and she is a certified sleep coach trained in cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. Yana, thank you so much for being here. Would you like to say hello?

Yana: Hi, Andrea. And all listeners, thank you so much for having me. It’s an, um, honor and a pleasure to be here.

Andrea: Thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Can you tell everybody first of all, where you are from? Where are you talking to us from?

Yana: Yes, I live in Amsterdam, the Netherlands.

Andrea: Wonderful. All right, tell me, tell me a little bit about how you came into this space. Tell me about your own struggle with sleep and how it led you to this space to become an expert in it.

Yana: Yes. And that’s also makes it very special to connect with your listeners because I’ve been through the discovery of infidelity myself. That was, as all people will know who’ve been through it, it really turned my life upside down. It was an emotional roller coaster. And at the time, I was a mother to two very young children. So there was also the aspect of the impact on the children and fears around that. And one of the many fallouts of this discovery was that, huh, my sleep was really badly disrupted. And one would say, you know, if you’re a young mom, that’s the case anyway. But there was a real difference

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Yana: between pre discovery and after. Because before I could be there for my children at night, nurse the baby, and then when he would be back asleep, I would go back to sleep.

Andrea: Right.

Yana: Just like I had with my elders. But now with the discovery, even when the babies were sleeping, I was awake. And I think many people can relate to that.

Andrea: Yep.

Yana: Whatever season of life you’re in that you’ll have difficulty falling asleep, a lot of people have difficulty staying asleep. So waking up in the middle of the night and then, um, not being able to go back to sleep and. Or waking up very early in the morning and then being just awake and alert, even though you. Your body is tired, your brain is, like, wired. And I often had all. All three of the above, uh, in the same single night. So that was intense. And also for me, it’s. It’s a While ago, it’s 10 years ago now, but it really also. However difficult it was, it also sparked this flame in me. Like, one day I would be so happy to help other people going through this experience and especially that nighttime piece which I found. You know, the days were difficult, but the nights were unbearable, I felt.

Andrea: And, yeah, those where it’s dark outside and the minutes drag forever and ever and ever, and you are just like, is the sun ever gonna come up? Right. Just those long, long, long nights. Something interesting about that I find really interesting about you is your background in being a newspaper journalist columnist there, and then using that experience and then your own personal experience. Right. Your own lived experience to kind of. It kind of seems like the perfect fit. Like the perfect. Taking the. The background of research and science and studying things and being good at your job and then turning that into. I’m going to get to the bottom of this here with this issue. First of all, let me ask you this, okay? We hear about sleep all the time, but being an expert, as you are. How important? How important?

Yana: Thank you. It’s very important. And yes, going back to the journalism that really, like the journalist in me was really like, researching and piecing things together, uh, and I love doing that. And I’m happy to now, you know, transfer the knowledge that I first used for myself and then, you know, uh, to the benefit of others. The question, how important is sleep? Two parts. It’s very important. Crucial, I would say, especially in this past discovery or disclosure. And at the same time, I also know that we’ll go into why it’s important. But at the same time, I want to acknowledge that it’s sometimes very difficult to get by and to sleep. And I also don’t want to add more anxiety to any listener with sleep problems, saying like, oh, if you don’t sleep, see, will happen, it will be a disaster. Because actually anxiety, stress and sleep don’t go together well. So that’s kind of like an overall framework. I’d like to give the listeners that, yes, we want to take sleep seriously. We want to take steps to improve it, but we don’t want to get overly anxious and perfectionistic Yep. We’re going to do what we can do when it comes time to put our head on the pillow. We’re going to say I did what I could do for my recovery, for whatever, you know, therapy, coaching. You’re in also aspects doing with sleep. But now it’s time to sleep. I’ve done my job and uh, I always say in sleep we trust. So now I’ll let sleep come.

Andrea: I love that.

Yana: Rather than, you know, laying your head on the pillow and going like, oh, I have to sleep because if I don’t sleep tomorrow, I might be snappy or I might be extra depressed or I might lose my temper. Because those thoughts are actually what then add to your stress and anxiety and add to you being awake. Right, right.

Andrea: I so understand this. I, for whatever reason, I’ve always, as far back as I can remember, carried a certain level of anxiety around what if I don’t get enough sleep? And I remember becoming a new mother and then especially when I had twins. Woo woo, man. Yeah. And they were number five and six, so I had four older children and then them, um, and I remember the anxiety of you’re not just like awake, but then like, oh my gosh, tomorrow it’s gonna be a killer. It’s going to be so miserable I won’t be able to blah, blah, blah. Right. And over time, exactly. What you’re saying is like, I love what you said about in sleep we trust like that, that, trusting that if just getting to sleep, that that’s enough, that we, that that’s enough. And that uh, you know, that’s just a wonderful

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Andrea: way of looking at it. And I, I totally recognize that. How it just makes it worse. Right.

Yana: Just your thoughts, stressful thoughts keep you awake. And I think these thoughts are very understandable because it is more difficult if you’re sleep deprived to get through the day.

Andrea: Right.

Yana: But actually personal experience and also with uh, clients, one of the first steps is to learn to trust that you’ll also get through the day.

Andrea: Mhm.

Yana: Even after bad night.

Andrea: Yes. So you’re not just making it worse. Yeah, yeah.

Yana: And so it might not be a great day, but it will be good enough. And if you can tell yourself that in the evening and if you start to experience that, like, okay, I had a bad night, but I still, you know, went out of the house, I was still there for my children, I cooked a meal. Maybe it was a simple meal, maybe you don’t a big meal, but you just say like, okay, tonight is pizza night, but you make it a Good enough day. Then you can learn to trust to say in the evening when your head hits the pillow, and maybe you are, like, ruminating, you know, emotions coming up. I know you work a lot that. So that’s also excellent that people search for help. And then one of the helpful thoughts can be when the. When the stressful thought comes up, like, oh, what if I don’t sleep? You can tell yourself, yes, that wouldn’t be great, but I’ll still be fine. I will survive.

Andrea: Yep. Building some resilience around, um, that, uh.

Yana: Yeah. And that’s a very calming thought. And then actually, when you get calm, then the sleep comes.

Andrea: Amazing. Amazing how that works, right? Yes. Now, uh, what I’d love to dive into as much as you. As much as you want to share with the audience here, your m. Your own experience, you. You mentioned that you had your own infidelity. The betrayal. There was a betrayal. Share with us as much as you want to around your own experience with going through that kind of what rebuilding looked like for you, what healing from that looked like for you, and where. Where sleep was involved for you, to the point of recognizing that this needed to be studied more. Take it away. Go ahead and share with us more of your story.

Yana: Yes, I’d be very happy to. It was a very difficult time in my life, but I’d be very pleased if I can help just any one person out there. I, uh, would be very grateful. The overall picture was that it was by far the most difficult period of my life. And I’d been through some things before, but this was by far the most emotionally complicated and just, you know, a source of so many ruminations and uncomfortable feelings and a lot of fear about the future and then being a new mom. There was also maybe some, you know, hormonal shifts, like maybe involved. But even without that, it’s just very difficult and even, I would say, traumatic. I would say I was traumatized at that time by the shock. And one of the helpful things was actually, after a few months, finding a book that actually spoke to that and saying, like, these experiences can be traumatic and you can have symptoms that are. Yeah, part of ptsd, like flashbacks, just a very, you know, active nervous system, stressed all the time, emotional roller coaster, anxiety, rumination. Really a lot as part of that, which is actually one of the, uh, hallmark symptoms of ptsd, is insomnia, is sleep problems, nightmares. I also had quite a few nightmares. We might go into that also.

Andrea: Yes, that’s important.

Yana: Yeah. And even though how difficult it was and even traumatic, I’M happy to say that I got out better on the other side. I’m very happy nowadays already for a long time, I feel very resilient. I know that’s also a very important topic for you, how we can take these very difficult periods in our lives and use them. Um, even though we didn’t ask for them, we might not have wanted, we don’t want them. But then when they happen, they can actually be a pathway to build resilience. Uh, because actually that’s, in my opinion, the best way out is become emotionally resilient. So I’m doing great. And for the relation, relationship with the father of my children, in our case, it ended up to be the best decision to divorce. He continued with the woman he fell in love with. And the good news is that we have a very healthy co parenting relationship.

Andrea: Wonderful.

Yana: She also did some work there because that wasn’t a given after all that had happened. But also that before that there was also already some unhealthy, um, patterns in our relationship. And I

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Yana: always say, like, those patterns don’t disappear just when you divorce. So if you have children, feel if there is a possibility and you feel there’s growth possible for both of you in the parenting relationship, I think it’s very worthwhile to also work on that. So we did. And yeah, we get along well as parents. The kids are thriving, which is such a miracle because that was actually one of the spiraling thoughts when I had that insomnia during, you know, that difficult period. It was like, how will this impact the children?

Andrea: Yeah.

Yana: And so I so hope to give. Yeah, maybe I can give some hope to listeners, but it can feel all very daunting. The future, and we don’t know what the future holds. I can’t make any promises, but please have faith that actually it can get so much better and maybe even better than before.

Andrea: Yep, I agree. I agree. Yeah. Beautiful. So tell me, for you, what did healing look like for you?

Yana: Well, healing involved many steps and I’ll also tie it to sleep.

Andrea: Yes.

Yana: Because I feel like the overall picture is that during the day you don’t want to just hope that things get better. You want to have what I call active hope. So you want to be doing things to make things better, whether you continue together as a couple or separate. I think there’s always, like in these circumstances, essential to work on yourself is maybe feels a bit like, oh, you have to work on yourself. Let me say that again. I feel it’s essential to seek progress for yourself and in many cases it’s very wise to also seek professional support to guide you in that progress, because that’s not easy, uh, during the day to hope, seek for help, take steps. And then in the evening and at night, try to sleep as best as you can and give sleep a, uh, priority. And why, why is that so important in the healing journey? Because those things that we do during the day in our sleep, we integrate and we process. And especially dream sleep is very important for processing emotions. And some people even call sleep overnight therapy. And in a sense it is because they’ve done research into people who went through difficult traumatic experiences and slept well and people who didn’t. And the people who did sleep well, they were better able to process what had happened. And also, if something had been like emotionally intense, that the emotions become less intense. So you don’t forget what happened. Yeah, we won’t forget, you know, the moment of discovery of or disclosure that’s etched in your memory. But the pain and the stress and the intense emotions that came with, uh, that we can process those. And sleep is then very supportive of that. You know, that emotional processing. That’s why I feel that next to seeking help for your making progress during the day, it’s also very beneficial to prioritize sleep without, as I said, uh, before getting overly anxious about it.

Andrea: Okay. Yes, yes, yes. So now let’s talk about how. How. But how, right. How to get back to sleep. How, like when you’re right in the midst of it, when you are in the depths. Right. What do you teach people about how to sleep? What are some of the things they can try?

Yana: Yeah, luckily there’s many things people can try. So have hope. Whatever your life circumstances, you can find things that will help. But to paint an overall picture, because I think people get lost in the details because there’s so much information online. They’re just like, do this, don’t do that. And it’s like a lot of scattering. You’re like, where do I start? You try one thing, it doesn’t work, you lose hope. So the overall picture is this. In what I do, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, we turn three dials, all in the same direction towards helpful sleep. So once you understand these three dials, you can really, for yourself see how overall you can improve your sleep. So without further ado, I will explain what these dials are. So most importantly are helpful thoughts m sleep. We already discussed that, why that’s important. Then second are helpful habits, and then, um, third are helpful sleep surroundings. So these

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Yana: are kind of like the three main areas, or dials, as I say, and if you point them all in the right direction, then you maximize your chances of healthy sleep. However, what happens often is that one dial is point pointed in the helpful direction, but the other in the unhelpful direction, and then it doesn’t work. Should I give, uh, an example place?

Andrea: Yes.

Yana: Okay. So what often happens is that people will start pointing the dial of sleep surroundings, maybe in the helpful direction, but they haven’t paired that with a helpful thought. So the thoughts are pointing in the wrong direction. So specific example would be one advice is to keep your bedroom dark.

Andrea: Yep.

Yana: And that’s scientifically proven. That’s smart to do. So let’s say you then decide to put up black outcurrents. Great step. You go out and invest. Like, you spend time shopping. You buy them, you put them up. All of this sounds easy, but actually can be a lot of work if you’re, like, you know, stressed out or you have a lot on your plate. But let’s say you’ve gone through that process, and then come nighttime, you lay down and you don’t fall asleep directly. And maybe after 10 minutes, you’re still awake. And then you start maybe getting frustrated or maybe ruminating going, like, what’s going on? I invested all this time and money and energy and getting the blackout curtains so and so online, said that they’re the best thing ever, and they put them up and they slept within seconds. And I’m still awake. So there must be something very wrong with me. My brain m might be broken. I have to continue searching and then add on. On top, the frustration of investing in the blackout curds that don’t seem to work. The question is, what is keeping, uh, us awake? Is it that the room. It’s useless, that the room is dark, or is it actually our thoughts that are keeping us awake? And I would say the latter, because then there’s again that frustration. So if we point the dial of the sleep surroundings in the right direction so the room is dark, it’s also wise to have it rather cool, quiet. We pointed that dial. Great. Then we go to sleep and we say, I’ve done what I could do. I’m proud of what I’ve done. I don’t expect miracles, but I do think that this is helpful. So I trust, you know, in sleep, we trust even if sleep doesn’t show up in exactly the way I want or not as much as I want, I trust that I’ll get through the day tomorrow, and tomorrow I’ll do more things and I’ll add to the helpful things to sleep well and just. Yeah. You see how that’s a different way of thinking about it.

Andrea: Yeah. You’re not placing all the expectations on these external things, like making it the perfect environment and then being so mad when it doesn’t work. Right. I can see how one can lend itself to another and, um, that they work together. It makes sense. Can you remind me what the second dial is? Habits. Okay. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yana: Yes. Well, I could talk for hours about that, but to keep it succinct. Again, this is good because there’s many habits that are helpful for sleep. There’s also some that are unhelpful that you can stop.

Andrea: Can I. I want to pause you just real quick to say, specifically, let’s talk about habits when you’re in it. Like when you are, you know, in the throes of. Of that initial, you know, the betrayal and you’re all over the place. And that roller coaster that you’re talking about, what are, uh. Let’s talk about habits in that space where everything feels kind of uncertain. And what can be things that people can do that don’t feel like, that overwhelming. Like one more thing that I need to remember when I can’t remember anything. Right. I want to talk specifically in that space. And then as people start to heal, what maybe they can layer in.

Yana: Wow, that’s. That’s a very wise distinction because indeed, those are two different things. Like the faith. Post betrayal, post infidelity. So let’s first talk about that, because, yes, life is then tends to be very chaotic. Forthcoming little energy. Usually, uh, I would say pick gentle habits because on, um, online there’s a lot of people who have, like, all these strict protocols to follow. Quite militaristic. And then it does, like, oh, this is a whole new, like, another thing on my plate. Just be gentle with yourself. Know that you don’t have to do it perfect. You don’t have to follow all the steps, just a few gentle, like, really helpful ones. I would say one that’s very helpful is getting outside in the morning and getting into daylight. Because getting daylight in your eyes

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Yana: helps set your circadian rhythm, which means your rhythm of waking and sleeping. And when you go outside in the morning, it will actually help you feel sleepy in the evening. And I know that, you know, after discovery or disclosure, even going outside can be a real struggle. I struggled with that for sure. And also having two very small children. I know you also were a mom of Six at the time, right?

Andrea: Yeah, yeah, Yep.

Yana: So that can be a real struggle even in normal life circumstances. So one thing that really helped me is back then I didn’t even know how important it was for sleep. I only discovered that later in my research and my education on this. Uh, but what was really helpful for me is meeting up with other people, joined a group of other young parents in my neighborhood, and we made a little WhatsApp group and we’re like, yeah, shall we go to that and that playground? I’ll see you there. And that was a motivation for me to get outside.

Andrea: Yep. Perfect.

Yana: Yeah. And I would say to make it even more doable, if life is very, you know, intense for you, even just sitting in front of an open window helps to set that circadian rhythm. And it doesn’t need to be long. If it’s a sunny day, five minutes is enough. So just, you know, grab a drink and just sit in front of that open window. Like, even if you’re with the kids and you’re, you know, preparing breakfast for them, is there a way that you can open a door or a window and get some of that daylight in? Yeah, that really be one.

Andrea: Wonderful. I’m thinking about. I live in a state that has a pretty strong winters in Montana. And I’m thinking, how does it work for, like, in winter time in that way? Yeah.

Yana: Um, it’s more difficult. One thing that people can do, but that will take time. And I don’t know if people have that time and flexibility is you have indoor lights that you can put in front of your face. You could be working on your laptop actually at the same time, and that admit the same, like, enough intensity of light to set that circadian rhythm.

Andrea: Okay. Wonderful. For those really, like, I’m thinking the really, really cold days where it’s brutal to go outside. Right.

Yana: Yeah. Then you could do that. And also, I would say, like, it’s okay if you miss a few days here and there. It doesn’t need to be every day, you know, for a long time.

Andrea: Yep.

Yana: Um, yeah, just be gentle. And other thing that can really help is movement. Get enough movement throughout the day. And this is, you know, also just so great for, you know, your mental resilience because it can be such a taxing time. A lot of people feel quite depressed a lot. And yeah, that happens. And then movement helps. And it doesn’t need to be, you know, brutal workout in the gym. It can just be, you know, going for a walk or even this is if you’re inside, even housework counts. You know, if you’re vacuum cleaning, you’re, you know, and people don’t realize that, but if you start counting that kind of like movement and exercise throughout your day, then in the evening you can say like, huh, huh, I feel I didn’t really exercise a lot. And then you’re like, hey, wait a minute, you know, I did all these household chores. This will definitely help me sleep.

Andrea: Yep, yep. And I can see how even taking the time to pause and think about that could help with the thoughts part too, of slowing down, thinking about, what did I actually do, what did I. How did I move my body? I did all of these things. Great. It’s going to help me sleep and just taking that, uh, anxiety down a notch, Right?

Yana: Absolutely. And that would be an utter, very practical and doable habit that I would. And that is right before bed. It’s something I started doing at that time, and I do it still 10 years later. And that’s writing down your success moments of the day. A lot of people are familiar with gratitude journaling.

Andrea: Yep.

Yana: And that’s also helpful. But I would say, um, expand it and don’t only write down what you’re grateful for, but also what you’re proud of what you did well that day. Because when we feel so down and out, we usually also feel down and out about ourselves.

Andrea: Right.

Yana: And people’s self esteem usually tanks in that period, sadly enough. And so for me, it was super helpful. Just right before, I would just sit in bed right before going to bed, and I would often just feel terrible. In all honesty.

Andrea: Yeah.

Yana: Yeah. And especially the evenings can be difficult. You’re tired. It all just like hits you how difficult life is. And maybe the day was difficult. You know, often it is. Often it has been very difficult. And then to just sit

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Yana: sit down, pick up my journal, my notebook. It can. Doesn’t have to be anything fancy, just anything paper and pen.

Andrea: Yep.

Yana: And then for, I would say around 10 minutes, but you don’t have to put a specific time. You could also say three things. Or I would just write down, I would think, like, what went well today, what was good. And some days it was like the first thought was just like, well, I’m still alive.

Andrea: We’re still here.

Yana: We’re still here.

Andrea: Yep.

Yana: And, yeah, it gives me the chills thinking back that, you know, I got so low. And many of us do that. Uh, just, uh, you. That you’re still there.

Andrea: Yes.

Yana: It’s like a success.

Andrea: Yep, I’m still here. Yep, still here.

Yana: And then I would write that down like, I’m still here. And then the next thing would come, like, actually, sun was shining.

Andrea: Yes.

Yana: My, uh, kid. Like, my kids were very small, but, yeah, there was, like, joy in seeing them or they were joyful. So I’d write down like, the kids were joyful. Like, I might have felt miserable, but they were joyful. I cooked dinner. I’m proud of them.

Andrea: Yes.

Yana: And then more and more things would come, and then I would end, you know, within 10 minutes. I would go from, oh, this was one of the worst days of my life. I would actually, there was. It was a difficult day, but there was, you know, these sparkles of light. There were these happy moments. And then your mind goes there, you see it again in your mind. You relive those happy moments. And that’s such a beautiful, like, easier state to then go to sleep.

Andrea: Yes. I can see too, how, you know, for so many people, not only was trust broken with our spouse or partner, but so much so with ourselves. Right. Where the things that we thought we knew about ourselves, about the world, like, just like that our. Our whole view can change so dramatically. Right. And I can see how this exercise at the end of the day can be little drops in a bucket back towards self trust. For example, if at first it’s hard to eat, right. And if anxiety is making it difficult to eat, and you have a day where you go, look at me, I ate a meal. It was a good meal. I took care of myself. And rather than focusing on, um, well, I only ate one meal, right? I ate. I fed myself today. And looking at that and counting that towards that self trust, like, I, over time, I will continue to take care of myself, do the things that I need to do. This temporary sleep disruption, it’s temporary. I will figure it out. And being able to look at it that way, I can see how just that alone could lend itself to more sleep, Right. To better quality sleep.

Yana: That’s so true. And I think your example is also very poignant because in those days, we can feel so lost.

Andrea: Yes. Yes.

Yana: And it’s part of actually the stressful or even traumatic response that we blame ourselves. We can get very down on ourselves. That’s sadly part of it. But it’s. It’s normal. But then to have a practice that then refocuses your brain on, um, the things you did do and that you did eat and then it was a good meal. Because our brain is. Is programmed to kind of like, look at what went wrong. So we have to make a conscious effort to look at the things that go well. And then m build on that. And what I notice is then it’s been better gateway into sleep. And also the next day you have extra motivation to like, hey, let’s go and do things. Because I wanna, you know, I wanna fill my list in the evening, have a beautiful moment where you go like before, you might actually like, pass by, but then you go like, hey, let’s soak this up. This could be one for the list.

Andrea: I love it. I love it.

Yana: So it’s really a reprogramming of the, of your focus.

Andrea: Yes, yes, that’s. I love that. I wanna circle back to something you said earlier about how sleep. Sleep is like, can be like therapy as powerful as that. And with that, you know, it’s that fine line between, like, making ourselves wrong for why can’t I sleep? Right. That anxiety and the frustration and that fine line between that and being gentle with ourselves with that. And also that sometimes it is like, uh, us trying to solve things. Right? Like keeping our minds awake, trying to figure out things, trying to solve things. And what would you say about almost like letting ourselves kind of surrender to sleep and going, that this will help me solve this. This will actually help me more than me staying awake trying to figure it out. I’d love to hear your thoughts

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Andrea: on that.

Yana: Well, exactly. That mindset is going to be so helpful if you can tell yourself one step back, actually. So I’ll say that again. So the mindset that you painted is exactly the mindset you want to have. It’s a very healthy mindset. Saying, like, if I sleep at night, I’m actually working, I’m actually processing. This is over therapy. So that’s, uh, a great way to look at it. And now I lost my train of thought because. What was your question again?

Andrea: It was around kind of surrendering to that and like, and how to do that. Like how to drop into that and like moving from that, ruminating to solve and actually dropping into kind of surrendering to sleep.

Yana: Yeah. So yes, you want to surrender to sleep. I think an important step before that is actually like acknowledging that the fact that you are stressed out and ruminating and trying to fix day and night is a very normal response to the stressful situation you’re in. The sad thing is it doesn’t help you sleep. But let me make this analogy. And that also shows that actually the fact that you, your brain and body are on high alert 24, seven even, you know, at night makes complete sense.

Andrea: Right?

Yana: Uh, this is the analogy. Imagine you’re going to Bed in the evening. This is a situation where life is normal. There’s no, you know, emotional chaos going on. But you go to sleep and all is, you know, normal. You’re ready to sleep, but then you smell something, you smell smoke, and you’re like, what’s that? Logically, you would want to get up, check what’s going on, and you might discover that there’s a fire in your kitchen. Then luckily, you know, you were alert, you went out of bed, you saw there’s a fire. Maybe you can extinguish it yourself, or maybe you need to call in help and you’ll deal with the situation. Now, going back to the situation of discovering infidelity, there’s definitely, you know, metaphorically, a fire in your house. It’s very threatening to you, your family system. You don’t know where this is going. So it’s actually very normal and natural and in a way, healthy that your brain goes like, we need to fix this. There’s a fire going on.

Andrea: Right.

Yana: We need to deal with this. But the difference with the kitchen fires, of course, you could deal with that in a moment. You have to deal with that. And then life goes on. But this is a situation that you know this better than most with the work you do. Many people, this takes months and even years to process, to resolve and find a, uh, solution that’s best for your situation and for your family. So it’s not something you can deal with in the moment. It’s not something you can fix in the moment, but your brain and body reacts in that way. It pumps up cortisol, stress hormones. It wants to fix it. So I think it’s very helpful step to say then in the evening, when you notice that your brain and body are active and alert and want to fix things and ruminate and think, and we need to solve this. What can I do? Go like, thank you, brain and body. You’re doing what you are designed to do. I can see you want to help me. I see that you want to resolve this situation. But let’s agree that this situation will take a longer time to resolve and that in this situation, it’s now better for us to go and sleep and then wake up refreshed and then I’ll deal with it again.

Andrea: Love it. Yep. So you’re kind of comforting that part of you that’s like, oh, we have to figure it out now. You’re kind of bringing comfort to it and bringing like, I’m in charge here. We need to go to sleep. Let’s go to Sleep and we’ll do uh, it will pick it back up in the morning. Right.

Yana: And even practically speaking, I would definitely advise to have a list next to your bed that when practical do come up. Like I, I want to call a therapist to get help. I need to look into a housing solution. Other uh, usually there’s many also practical things that need to be taken care of that can keep you up at night. Write it down on a list and then say okay, tomorrow we’ll do deal with this. And that’s that other aspect that I talked about, the active hope during the day.

Andrea: Mhm.

Yana: Be active even in small ways, very small steps it can be. But be active in making that progress. Wonderful looking on that list. And then in the evening you can say like okay, you can write it on your success list. Did that. And you can tell your brain thanks for trying to take care of me by keeping me up day and night. But now it’s time to sleep. Pick it up back. You know, we’ll pick it up tomorrow again.

Andrea: I love that. I love having that where you can even write it down and just

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Andrea: uh, don’t worry, I’m coming back to you. I will. And it’s so amazing how the things that feel so urgent in the middle of the night, you can look at it the next day and be like oh okay, okay. Like we can have just a little more perspective. Right? A little more perspective 100%.

Yana: So that’s also one thing. Then just to be like I’ll uh, write it down on the list. If tomorrow this still feels very urgent, I’ll deal with it.

Andrea: Yes.

Yana: But maybe the next day you go like oh, actually it’s okay, we can.

Andrea: Let at once, right? Yep. We can let it go. Yep.

Yana: Because sometimes you also have things like I want to say this and you know, you have these conversations in your head with maybe the person who was unfaithful to you or other people in your life and then you well, just write it down.

Andrea: Yeah. Get it drop, dump it out of your brain. Get it on paper. Yep. I love that I wanted. I know you have so much wisdom, so many things that we could probably talk for hours and all the things all so much to talk about for the sake of time. I want to, I want to just give a little bit of time to hear your thoughts on any kind of frameworks or things that could be easy for the three dial was very helpful. Is there anything else that you think would be very useful today for people listening to take away from this today that they can use Immediately.

Yana: Okay, well, two things. First of all, yes, there was a, uh, lot of information, and I have more information to share for people who are struggling with sleep in the aftermath of infidelity, if they want to learn more. I’ve developed a free email course that people can find on my website.

Andrea: Wonderful.

Yana: Would it be okay to mention it?

Andrea: Yep. Absolutely. Yes, please.

Yana: So, yeah, I have a free email course that people can find on my website, and that is w.resilientdays.com.

Andrea: Wonderful. And we’ll have that all linked up in the show notes for everybody to find easily.

Yana: Thank you. Yeah. And in that, uh, free email course, I share practical frameworks like the one with the dials, but I also give more, like, practical, specific tips and also guidance on if you’re looking for help with sleep, what to look out for. Luckily, there’s a lot of good coaches out there that can help. I would advise to look for somebody who’s informed about trauma and maybe even, you know, betrayal trauma. Ideally.

Andrea: Yeah.

Yana: And then back to your question of, like, a practical tip. I think I’ll mention something I would advise people not to do.

Andrea: Okay.

Yana: That isn’t often talked about. That might be a bit taboo, and people don’t want to touch upon it. But I know it can be an issue, especially after a big stressful event in life. But it’s very harmful for sleep. And so here it comes.

Andrea: Okay?

Yana: And that is using alcohol to fall asleep or just to forget your worries. And I must say, I can empathize with people who, you know, make that choice. Remember? So I hadn’t been drinking alcohol for many years before this happened. But I must say, like, the intensity, like the emotional roller coaster, the ruminations, it did make me long to just, like, knock myself out or at least just one or two glasses of wine to kind of like, as they say, wine down dub. Luckily, I couldn’t. I was nursing my son, so there was, uh, no option to drink alcohol. And I think that was a savior. Because what I didn’t know then, but that I learned later in my education around sleep, is that alcohol and marijuana, by the way, sometimes people go to that option. It does make you fall asleep faster, so that makes it very tempting to use it. But there’s a big, uh, disclaimer. You get just a little bit more sleep. It’s actually maybe 10 to 15 minutes more, so it’s even not that much more. And the quality of your sleep is badly disrupted. And that’s where the problem is. So you might sleep a bit more, but the Quality of that sleep is not healthy. And especially the phase of dream sleep, which happens more towards the end of the night, gets disrupted a lot. And it’s actually that dream sleep that provides the overnight therapy. So I would say if you’re going through a stressful life event, fidelity or otherwise, however tempting it might be to have that one or two or more wines in the evening, please don’t do that. Know that your sleep will thank you. If you don’t know that there’s many other ways, healthy ways to find your way to sleep and then that sleep will be of a good quality.

Andrea: Mhm.

Yana: And I would say if you’re struggling with this and you can’t find a way out yourself, definitely look for help.

Andrea: Okay, so I’m hearing in what you’re saying that quality over

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Andrea: quantity, right? The quality of the sleep, even if you’re getting more sleep, technically it’s not gonna have the same like, nurturing, healing effect as the quality that you’re talking to about here.

Yana: Correct? Okay, Correct.

Andrea: Mm, mhm. Okay, perfect. Yeah. It’s amazing how you can have technically the correct hours of sleep or whatever and still feel so tired. Or you can have like that nice solid like length that’s maybe shorter and feel such a difference in your body. Right?

Yana: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I would also not focus as much on how many hours you get because sometimes it might actually be little.

Andrea: Right, right.

Yana: But just try to give it priority. Maybe in other tips. I have so many tips, but maybe, uh, uh, a final tip, especially in this situation of, you know, big emotional turmoil, is to try to go to bed around about the same time, give or take half an hour, max, an hour. Because for your body and brain, it will then be much easier to go to sleep because it’s at a predictable time. Just when we do with kids, you know, we try to get them to bed at the same time. But this can go off the rails in a situation of infidelity because often, you know, partners are talking, they might be fighting or even if they’re talking in a constructive way, if you then end up talking, you know, way past midnight and then you don’t sleep well. Actually some of that progress that you made is not solidified because you’re not sleeping well. So I would say, like, try to be consistent and also communicate with the people in your life. It might be also people who are helping you out and they might be come over and, you know, I had friends who came over, you know, thank God, they were so helpful, they would help me cook Dinner. I could take the kids to bed. They would help clear up. Of course. Then it feels very tempting to say, like, oh, let’s chat, you know, let’s, you know.

Andrea: Right. Have the adult time. Yeah.

Yana: But not until late. Then just say at a certain time or even communicate beforehand. Like, I’m so happy that you’re coming over. I’m so grateful for your help. Could you also help me by saying around nine or ten, whatever is the good time for you? Time to sleep.

Andrea: Yep. Time to go to bed and do.

Yana: That already beforehand, because by the time you’re tired, it’s very difficult. Called to communicate.

Andrea: Right, Right. Yes. Well, thank you so much. Lots of wonderful things to think about. And I’m sure there’s so much, so much more that we could dive into to wrap this up today. Again, we’ll be putting in the show notes where you can each learn more. You can each learn more and go take that free. The free course that you have put together, which is so wonderful and so generous. So thank you for that. Is there anything else that you would like to share as far as hope for my listeners of, uh, their future and what’s possible for them?

Yana: Oh, yeah. That’s such a wonderful way to end. Yeah. I would definitely say there’s a lot of hope for a better future. And if I focus on sleep, if I make specific to sleep, you will sleep again if you take the right steps. And even if it doesn’t happen overnight, if you stay consistent and keep pointing those three dials in the right direction, you will get there, remain hopeful. Even if the nights are very dark, you can get through this. And beautiful.

Andrea: Yep. They’re gonna be just fine, huh? Yeah.

Yana: It might take some time. And also with sleep, maybe some, what I call practice rounds. But see every time, see every setback as a practice round, be it around sleep or processing emotions and time get better.

Andrea: Yep. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here. And I know that people are going to enjoy listening to this and hopefully put it into practice immediately. Get some better sleep right away. Thanks so much.

Yana: Well, and thank you for having me. It’s like a dream come true after, you know, 10 years ago, laying awake and thinking, like, if one day I can help people with this. And now being on your show, that’s, um, incredible. I’m so grateful.

Andrea: Thank you so much. Thank you for all the work that you’ve put in. To be able to be here, it takes a lot. This we know, and here we are. Right. So thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the Heal From Infidelity podcast. If you would like to be kept in the know about upcoming free classes, new podcast episodes, and other ways of working with me, go subscribe to my weekly email. You can subscribe at, uh. Andreagiles.com lies about infidelity forward slash again it’s andrea

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Andrea: giles.com lies about-infidelity forward slash I will see you next time.

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