Andrea: I’m Andrea Giles and you’re listening to the Heal from Infidelity podcast, episode number 248, Can a Marriage Be Stronger After Infidelity – with Zach Brittle.

Infidelity changes everything. Who you thought you were, what you thought your life was. From here you can keep circling the pain or rebuild something real. This is a space for men and women navigating infidelity. Whether you’ve been betrayed or your the one who broke trust. I’m Andrea Giles, master certified relationship coach. I know what’s possible on the other side when you’re willing to tell the truth all the way out, you’re in the right place. Let’s begin.

Hello everybody. Welcome. Welcome to this amazing episode in which I have an incredible guest marriage therapist, Zach Brittle. You’re going to hear our discussion here in a minute, but before we get into it, I have to just let you know a couple things that are going on in the business for those of you who want more support. I have two ways to get help right now. One is I have a summer Telegram experience open. It’s called the Summer of YOU. It’s where you come into Telegram. It is a free app and it is a group experience where I share trainings, I share insights, I share what’s going on with me as this summer is a big summer of transition for for me, of change, of making bold choices, of letting things go, of calling things in. And I’m going to be sharing some of those things with you that will help you make shifts for yourself and get coaching and get questions asked from me directly inside this Telegram experience. The link is below. We already started, but you can jump in and join anytime. It ends in the end of August so you can go down to the show notes and grab that. The other thing I have available right now is the standalone course of get your life back after infidelity. I no longer am taking applications for the group, but I am offering the coursework that you can do a self study of. You can go listen to all of the trainings, go through all of the in depth worksheets, spend time with all of them and this alone will be transformational for you. You’ll understand your emotional landscape, you’ll have real concrete tools and things that you can use right away to help you navigate right where you’re at. It will help you pinpoint what your values are, what you want to create, get more in the energy of creation rather than lack, which changes everything. All of this is inside this standalone course of get your life back after infidelity. You can also grab that in the show notes. I look forward to continuing to hear from you, work with you, and hope you enjoy this episode. I have an amazing guest here today. This is a guest that I’ve had on my radar for quite a while to bring to you to learn from. This is Zach Brittle. Zach has been a therapist for 20 years. 20 years. And he also is the host of the Marriage Therapy podcast. And he has such, uh, depth and breadth to the work that he’s done many, many years of working with couples, working with people, navigating what you’re all here for in infidelity, in the infidelity space. So I thought I’d bring him on today and, and learn from him and have a discussion. I know it’s going to be a wonderful discussion. Welcome to the podcast, Zach.

Zach Brittle: Thanks. Yeah, I’m glad to be here.

Andrea: You’re welcome. Go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got into this field. You’ve been at it for a long time. Yeah, tell us about yourself.

Zach Brittle: But I tell you what, I, I love my job. I. I’m in exactly the right job for me, which is really great. I think if I weren’t in my own. If I weren’, job, it’s a pretty good chance I’d be divorced, maybe even divorced as a result of infidelity. Because I just, you know, I think it’s such a easy trap to fall into. I think when you’re somebody like me who likes people caring about you and being interested in you and finding you interesting and, you know, uh, I’m in this work and I get to hang out with people every single day who are all over the map. One of the things I think about my practice is that I, I have like, a little bit of, like, time travel every day. So I’ll have a couple in my 30, in their 30s, and then also another couple in their 40s, and another one in their 50s, another one in their 60s. I have a couple in their 80s, a couple that’s been married longer than I’ve been alive. And every day I get to, like, watch kind of the life cycle of, uh, a relationship out in front of me. And without help, it’s really easy to fall into the pitfalls, you know. And so there’s something about me that really appreciates and understands how important relationships are and how important fidelity is and how important love is. Love is big and confusing and weird. And I think if I

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Zach Brittle: didn’t have guardrails, meaning, like, the actual conversations, like Boots on the ground conversations every day. I could easily be just another cliche on the street, you know.

Andrea: Wow. Okay. Right out the gate bringing the, the honesty.

Zach Brittle: And I don’t know how to do it any different. I mean, you know, it’s like, uh, There’s a line in my bio that has gotten me more business than any other thing I’ve ever written, which is that my wife Rebecca and I have been happily married for 27 out of 30 years. Um, we’ve had three pretty significant challenges. One included an emotional affair that I had. So that was 20, 25 years ago now. But you know, I’ve. I’m not just like sitting here having opinions about it. I’ve actually like had to kind of work through it a little bit. You know, a lot of it doesn’t really feel like part of my identity now, but it, it certainly, certainly is, you know, so amazing.

Andrea: M. Yeah. Wow. Way to.

Zach Brittle: I got all the training, I got all these certifications, I got all the experience. None of it’s as important as the three periods that we weathered. They were challenging.

Andrea: You know, you probably learn more than all of the. Everything combined. Right. By being on the ground doing it yourself. And, and you said something right out the gate about how you would probably be divorced and maybe from on the other side of infidelity if you didn’t do what you do and the work that you do. And that’s such an important point. I feel the same that when I’m on the ground talking with people, hearing their stories, we’re just people and we’re slogging along doing the best that we can. Right. We’re doing the best we can. And we all have, we all have our own reasons, uh, and ways and things. And you’re here to help it. Help make the road a little easier for people. Right. And I hope so. And helping yourself along the way. Thank goodness we get to help ourselves along the way. Right. I often say I am like, I, like I learned way more myself for myself than I. Than I ever help anyone else. Like it. Who knew? Right? Who knew? Wonderful.

Zach Brittle: Well, I mean, I’m like, I’m in couples therapy every day.

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Like as a therapist for sure. But like I’m, I’m a client, you know. Yeah. People, people ask me like, you must have a really great marriage. And I do, and I’m grateful for that. But my answer is I don’t have a great marriage, but I don’t have any excuses.

Andrea: Right.

Zach Brittle: You know, I don’t necessarily have a great marriage, but I don’t. That definitely don’t have any excuses. So awesome.

Andrea: You know, do you ever. Do you ever feel like. Like you’re in a session and you’re giving just really, you know, that it’s stellar and you have this little, like, m. I could probably turn that one on, you know, I could probably hear that one myself. I know that happens to me. That’s why I bring it up.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I feel that way. I was just. I was just sitting with a gal yesterday. Um, they’re coming in off of a kind of a bombshell disclosure. And, um, she’s reeling, and he’s reeling, and she. She left. Then we had a one, she and I, and she left feeling really, I think, invited into healing. And here’s the thing I wanted to ask you about, because, I don’t know. I want to know what you think about. This is. I think if you asked her what her homework was after our session yesterday, she would tell you that it’s to be interesting. M. And what do you mean by that? And I go, well, there’s so many things around and about infidelity that are cliches, that are just boring. I listen to these stories over and over again, and I’m like, I can finish these sentences for you. I can tell you exactly how it happened. I can point to the. Like, it’s boring. Be interesting. M. You know, and she’s like, I am interesting. I’m a mother and I have a da, da, da. Uh, and I’ve got this great job. And I’m like, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about how you respond here. How you behave. Now is the thing that people are gonna go, that’s interesting. How’d you do that? Like, that’s. What is that? You know?

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: And so I don’t know exactly how to generate that or create that or like, coach that up. But. But I know that, like, the problem that I see most of all is that these people. These people, Geez. I mean, I was. I was these people. So I’m not denigrating that. But, like, we buy these cliches. We buy these, like, sort of rote sentences that. That don’t actually mean anything until you interrogate them and they end up taking us over and we just become another, uh, casualty of the. Of the theme. Right. And I’m like, what if it was interesting? Like, what if you told an interesting story? I mean, we have an interesting story of our own, which is something like, as soon as we Face the reality of my, you know, breach. I got into therapy every week, she got into therapy every week. We got into therapy every week. We took out a home equity line of credit to make sure that we, you know, we’re accountable to, uh, we could, wouldn’t say we can’t afford it. Like, we did

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Zach Brittle: some interesting stuff.

Andrea: Wow.

Zach Brittle: For like a year. That’s amazing. So I don’t know, man. I’m interested to know what you think about that. And then I have other ideas that I’m wanting to bat around.

Andrea: Yeah, I love it. I love it. So what comes to mind for me, and this is something that I’ve been, uh, talking about way more than ever is this concept of so many of us are going through the motions, playing out our roles. Right. The boring roles that like you talked about that we could like. That’s not interesting. Uh, playing, playing the roles. Doing the. Playing the part, doing the thing. And to me, when you talk about that brings up this concept of, of de. Centering everyone else around you and learning how to recenter yourself and actually learning how to do that. And not from a. It’s not from this ego driven, screw you type energy. Right. It’s really out of necessity. It’s out of necessity. Like I’ve been orbiting everyone else and their experience and this didn’t go great like that. Let’s try that. That. If that didn’t work, what else are we going to try here? And learning how to recenter. And a word, uh, a way I describe it is making yourself your own son. But I think that everyone is meant to be their own son or one is not supposed to outshine anybody. El. And to me that sounds interesting because that’s so, uh. There’s so much exploration in there. There’s. There’s learning to sit with discomfort that around who we’ve been and who we actually are and where we want to go and the things we want to do. And, and what happens if I don’t like, for example, what happens if I don’t make my children the center of my universe? Then what. What does that mean about me? What, you know, working through, working through all of that and stepping into what is interesting to you. Right. Not interesting to other people, but what lights me up. Right.

Zach Brittle: Uh, yeah.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Again, sitting with this gal yesterday, I was, you know, this idea of being your own son. I was like, you need to just be okay. Like you’re okay. Yeah. Be, be okay. Don’t outsource your okayness to him.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Or to his story or to the gal that he was flirting with. And don’t outsource your okay to your kids. Don’t outsource your okayness to your job. Like you’re okay. Yep. You’re gonna be okay. You know? Yeah. So just, why don’t you just be okay and let that be interesting?

Andrea: I love it. You know, I think that sounds very interesting because you’re right. The other story’s so cliche.

Zach Brittle: Mhm.

Andrea: Of not being okay. Not cliche.

Zach Brittle: She kept telling me stuff and she kept telling me things and I was like, yep. Yeah, m. Yeah, got it.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. I have another theory I want to see what you think about. So there’s this moment in an infidelity story that includes disclosure, and then all of a sudden all these questions come up. When? Where? Who, how did you come? Did you, did she come? Where were you? Did you. Was it in her? Whatever. They all, they all are, right?

Andrea: Yes.

Zach Brittle: And I think that they all. Some of those things are important and they need to be clear, particularly on safety, particularly around, you know, financial integrity, whatever. Like there’s, there’s, there’s reasonable things to know.

Andrea: Yes.

Zach Brittle: But I, I had this other theory which I think mostly people want to know three things. You tell me if I’m wrong because you’ve had a. You’ve. You. You know, I think they want to know if it’s their fault.

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. I think they want to know if, uh, they’re alone. Like, am I the only one that this. Is this the only person that this happened to? Yep. So can you linger on those two for me for a second? Does that your experience? Like.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I think that what they think they’re looking, what they’re asking is not necessarily what they actually are needing. Right.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Ah.

Andrea: And sometimes they can circle in it with these questions that seem very urgent and important and it still doesn’t get them any closer to actually what’s going to help them heal. Right.

Zach Brittle: Right. That. Okay. That’s okay. This is actually reinforcing my theory that you get all these questions come up and you want every answer and you want it, uh, every minute accounted for. And it’s actually the third question that I think that people are asking, which is am I crazy?

Andrea: Mhm. Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Totally my fault. Am I alone? Am I crazy? And I think if people can understand that it’s not your fault and you’re not the only one and you’re not crazy.

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Then you have a path. You have, you have a chance.

Andrea: Yep. Yep.

Zach Brittle: Even without all the answers to the Detail questions, I think.

Andrea: And the problem with that, that can be the trap in that is sometimes when they keep circling with those questions, it’s actually having the opposite effect. Right. It’s making them feel more crazy, it’s making them feel more alone. Right. Uh, if, if they’re asking questions where there’s any kind of blame or somebody trying to point a finger at them, you didn’t, you weren’t intimate enough, you didn’t pay enough attention to me, those kinds of things, it’s just going to reinforce this, it’s my fault. Right. And

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Andrea: really, really, this okayness that you’re talking about is them coming to solid ground with those questions within themselves. And it can’t, it can’t possibly given, be given externally. Right?

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Yeah. So when I’m sitting with a couple that comes in and there’s been this thing and they want to tell me the whole story and they want to. She wants to rage or he wants to rage. I think your audience is primarily women. Yeah, yeah. This is mostly, mostly for, but mostly, um, you know, he, he’s, he’s been the, this, the, you know, the harmed partner in an affair is often, not as often, but often enough. So I don’t want to like make it one sided basically. But um, they come in and they want us account, all this accountability. And I think what they need is just clarity, you know, like this is. Yep. And then, and then from a clear, from a position of clarity, you can go, okay, I’m willing to do this or not. The other thing that blows my mind, it doesn’t blow my mind, but I just think like, here’s another cliche. The one thing I won’t tolerate is betrayal. If he ever has an affair, I’m out. I’m like, okay, well what are you, what are you doing in my office

Andrea: and why are you here?

Zach Brittle: Yeah, because the thing that you thought was like your one thing actually turns out it’s maybe not your one thing. So what does that tell us about what your one thing might actually be?

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: You know? Yeah.

Andrea: What do people say to you in response?

Zach Brittle: You know, I feel like part of my job is to not to make people feel dumb or like, like duh, you and I right now are having this kind of casually flippant conversation. I don’t feel that in my body. Like, I feel like it’s my job to say this, this too shall pass. Like you, this is a, you can do this. Um, and in fact, the fact that you’re asking for help is actually really good.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Like it’s a, it’s a sign that you have a, a way forward. And they, it takes them a while to believe that, right? Yep. So when they, when I say that, when I surface that for them, what are you doing in my office? And they don’t really have an answer. Well, I wanted to give it one more shot. I tell them, I actually think that you have a chance to have a healthier marriage than you have ever had. And that’s healthier and stronger than your neighbors and your friends and your parents. You know, people who have experienced the breach, people often stand up in front of their friends and their family in their white dress and they say, I do. Yeah. Do you? I do. How about you? Do you? I do too. They don’t know what they’re saying. I do too. No idea. Then they live a little bit of life and they have a, uh, they have this breach perhaps that enters into the relationship and both of them have to face this question of do I? Do you? I don’t know if I do. I might rather do with this other lady or I might rather do with this, but I’m willing to see if I do with you. Mhm. And then if you can come back to I do with the awareness of what I don’t actually looks like that’s real strength. That’s like real, that’s real meat. I think that’s what Rebecca and I enjoy. Um, is this kind of, again, it’s not our story anymore, but this latent reality that we said I do, we came up to. I don’t know if I do. Yeah, I said I do again. Yeah. And that second one is the marriage that is. That we’re operating out of.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: Not the first one.

Andrea: Amazing.

Zach Brittle: You know.

Andrea: Yes. Awareness.

Zach Brittle: And we’ve had and, and, and, and I want to make this really clear. That particular point in our marriage was not the hardest thing we’ve ever been through. It’s not. You know, that was the first of three challenging periods and the other two were way worse and they weren’t fidelity based, you know, so again, you can do, you can do this, you know,

Andrea: uh, like what a breath of fresh air and having, having the people there, they’re like, I always said that if this happened, I’d leave. And yet there they are and that you can give that to them. And I so appreciate other, other people in this space, other professionals in this space that hold that because I do too. I do too. It’s, it can be the biggest wake up call to, to wake us up We, I love how you said we don’t even know what we’re seeing. I do too. When we’re first time around, we don’t even know. And then we have this opportunity to wake up and learn and, and then choose again. Right. What do you think about this? I have two questions for you actually.

Zach Brittle: Okay.

Andrea: Okay. First, I want to go back to this disclosure piece. Okay. I am curious your thoughts on you. You touched on a little bit. But I have people come in and their, their, their spouse is working with somebody who helps them write up their whole dis. The full disclosure. And sometimes doing a test, you know, the, you know, the, the one, uh, the, you know, essentially I don’t know the one that like if they’re telling the truth. Right. Polygraph. Is that the word?

Zach Brittle: By polygraphic?

Andrea: Yeah, that’s the word. Yeah. Like the polygraph test. Um, and. Or really pushing for it. What are, what are your thoughts on that? Unnecessary. Uh, when is it helpful? When is it not

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Andrea: helpful? They touched on it a little bit. But I’d love to hear your thoughts of this.

Zach Brittle: I’m really clear about one thing that’s. Let’s just stick with like kind of with the gender system that we’ve established here. He had an affair and she just, she’s suffering. So I’ll just use him.

Andrea: Sure.

Zach Brittle: I think he needs to disclose the whole story. I think he needs to tell every single detail, but not to her. I think he needs to tell it to his God, his journal, his therapist, his sponsor, his parent, his buddy, someone who can hold it, who can take it in, receive it, allow him the opportunity to purge it. Right. Because a lot of what’s so powerful is the secret. Yeah. It’s the, it’s the, it’s the charge of like the. This is mine. I think he needs to get it out of his system. I think he needs to come clean. But I don’t think it necessarily needs to be her. And the reason is because there are things that she can’t unhear, can’t, uh, unknow and can’t. And there. And the thing. And those things may not be helpful for her recovery. They may not be useful. They may actually be problematic. So you know, I think disclosure, I think it’s a good and wise and important thing for him to do. And I don’t think it has to be for her. I think what he needs to disclose to her is that it’s not her fault. She’s not alone.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: And she’s not crazy.

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Like, she was right to Feel like she was living in an alternate universe for a period of time. M. Because she was.

Andrea: Yep. And you know what?

Zach Brittle: Different timeline, you know.

Andrea: Yes. And I actually think it goes both ways though, because one thing I’ve learned with the clients that I’ve worked with that are the unfaithful or dishonest, uh, that when you actually hear that whole story and they feel so much shame and embarrassment. I can’t believe I did this. And then you hear the whole thing just like. Yep. Makes sense. Right? Makes sense that that’s what felt like the thing to do at that time. And they’re over here hanging out in so much shame and surely no one else could have done it like this or whatever. Right. And so being able to also hear. Yeah, thank you. You know that. Thank you for sharing. I will hold that. And now what are we going to do with this? Right. I think that for both people involved to just be heard is really important.

Zach Brittle: Mhm. Yeah. That’s what I think about that. Um, and you know, obviously it’s complicated. There are, there are things that really do matter. Like, am I at risk for an std?

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Where’s my money?

Andrea: Yes.

Zach Brittle: Is there a love child out there somewhere? Like, of course.

Andrea: Massive impact things, you know? Yes. Mhm.

Zach Brittle: But you don’t need to know when and where and how many times. And yet the, uh. And like you don’t.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: It’s just not, it’s not going to serve your mental health.

Andrea: Yep. Like you, like you already said once, it’s. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. It’s there, it’s locked in. Right. The other question I had for you is, in your experience, when you have, uh, people come in specifically around infidelity, it seems to me that when people decide to part ways, if they do. If people decide to part ways, it’s not, it’s not anymore about the infidelity. It’s that sometimes the infidelity shone the light on the relationship. Things that have been there probably for a long time. And sometimes there’s a. Seeing that we want different things, we’re going in different directions, whatever. I’m curious about you. In your practice with all the people that you’ve seen, the people that do leave, what do you see them, um, leaving for? If they come in for infidelity, what do people think?

Zach Brittle: I think for, for me, you know, I’m gonna hold out hope for the relationship typically longer than my clients, just because I’ve. I’m aware of the long game in ways that they are not. And I will tell them, you gotta play the long game here. If your marriage is gonna survive. You got a while. Like it’s a while before you get back to the thing that, and, and you know, you have to measure or evaluate your own distress tolerance and, and figure that out. What I want is that if they, whether they stay together or whether they split up that they do it with like a sober mind. They do it like with their. They don’t do it in the, in the trauma.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: In the shock. They do it thoughtfully. And I think I, uh, like I’m m willing to say a hundred percent of the time. M. Am I probably that infidelity is the symptom, not the problem.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: Right. Like you can always trace it back to. It’s always got an origin story that is. That may appear pretty benign on, on some level. And I’ll also say this. I’ve never once seen a couple recover, not one time. If she didn’t say, I know I’m a part of this.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: I, ah, know I contributed this to this. Like that I had a role in the breakdown of the marriage. Again, not my fault. That’s not the same as it’s your fault. But like, I

00:25:00

Zach Brittle: know that somewhere along the way I skipped a step, missed a beat, you know, was too naive, didn’t pay attention, maybe paid too much attention to my kids, which is a very good thing to do.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: Like you should keep your kids alive.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: You know, uh, we all know the stories about these guys who, you know, get jealous and they fall off their marital satisfaction wagon because they’re splitting detention and sex goes away and you know, the vagina stopped being this mysterious thing and now it’s this kind of really strange birth canal situation. Like the mystery goes away. You know, like we.

Andrea: Yes.

Zach Brittle: Easy. Right. Boring. Cliche.

Andrea: Yes.

Zach Brittle: Um, doesn’t make anybody’s fault. But to say, yeah, we didn’t steward that. Well, we didn’t steward that transition. Well, if she doesn’t contribute to that conversation and she’s outsourcing the repair a hundred percent to him, there’s not a way back. I don’t think.

Andrea: Yep. I agree. I agree.

Zach Brittle: So.

Andrea: Yep. I.

Zach Brittle: That’s uh, a hard thing to do when you’re in pain. I get that.

Andrea: It is, it is. And I think there’s a time and a place. Right. There’s like the initial like crisis, like that initial shock and everything that needs its own due period of healing. But I agree. Like when weeks and, or uh, months and years go by and Stuck in that blame. Blame cycle. There’s. There’s really nowhere for it to go. Right?

Zach Brittle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea: What do you see as the best things that can come from. From infidelity? Like, what have you seen in your own life, in your clients?

Zach Brittle: Well, I mean, I think again, like, any, any experience of death and then rebirth, I think is miraculous, right? Like, that’s, that’s what the entire Christian faith is based on. It’s what nature is based on. It’s what, you know, when you, when you have a thing that dies and then comes back to life, it’s a miracle. And I think the best thing is to appreciate that this is sort of part of the circle of life and if you can come back to. Okay, but how are we going to steward this miracle? You know, are we going to lean into something like gratitude? Are we going to serve other people? I’m, um, I’m, um. Part of my, part of my identity is I’m sober. I worked the steps, I did the whole thing.

Andrea: Amazing.

Zach Brittle: You know, the twelfth step is about returning the favor. It’s, like, about giving back to the community. It’s, you know, so how can you take your story that you’re. The thing that you’ve survived, weathered, turn it into something like an opportunity for hope for other people? You know, that’s the best thing. And I would say that includes our kids. Like, our kids aren’t. Our kids were super young. My, my kids are. Well, the story that, that, that I’ve referenced a couple times, my. Was right after my older daughter was born. So cliche. And then before my second daughter was born. So they weren’t, they’re not like, really aware or like, attuned to kind of the story, but they know that we have a recovery story. They know that we have a, you know, and that’s good for them because they have a perspective on what it means to, like, suffer and recover and mature and grow closer as a result. So if I change the future because of my story, I’m, um, for that. I’m, um for that for them, you know, and when they reach their inevitable breaches and break points on either side of the equation, they know that there’s a. There’s a path that includes maturity and sobriety and, you know, maybe even gratitude for the miracle, you know, so I’m not trying to, I’m not trying to paint it in this, like, grandiose, flowery picture. But again, I’m. I’m 53 years old, and life is like, things that I thought were the biggest deal on the planet are just not that big a deal. Gotta take care of your people. You gotta love your neighbor. That’s it. Like, what am I supposed to. And your. Your closest neighbor is your. The person you just said, okay, I’m gonna do this with you till death do we part. And then your next two closest neighbors are mine anyway. Are the two people that I invented. And then you got actual neighbors in your community and in your world, in your life. You just got to take care of those people. And that doesn’t mean being perfect. It means repairing.

Andrea: Yeah. Can I ask you a question?

Zach Brittle: Yeah, of course.

Andrea: You mentioned earlier that there have been three. Three years that have been really challenging. One was around the. That. The. What you shared about the.

Zach Brittle: Yeah, Emotional breach. Breach.

Andrea: Right. The other two, were they, uh, a threat to the marriage or just really, really int.

Zach Brittle: Uh, I would say the second one was more like an intense era that we both were just like, really

00:30:00

Zach Brittle: confused about our own identities and who we were and how we wanted to show up. I don’t know if we ever got to the point where we even understood that as a threat to the marriage. Like, it was just more like sort of like pre midlife existential grappling crisis or something. Yeah. Third is very specifically, uh, kind of connected to each of us getting sober. Like, we. We both had, like, progressive alcohol problems, um, you know, kind of starting probably even starting about the time our kids were born. So, you know, 20 years into that, it had taken enough control of both of us that we. We had to grapple with whether or not our marriage was going to survive, whether or not we were going to survive. Like, I had a question about whether or not I was going to choose to survive. And we’ve done a lot of really good, meaningful work around that in the last five, six years. That has been the hardest and warning thing I think we’ve ever done on behalf of our marriage and the one we’re doing now as our kids are leaving and we’re empty, nesting, we’re like, okay, all right. You know, people come into my office and they’re like, well, now what are we going to do? And I’m like, it’s the right question, but you’re asking it in the wrong way. It’s like, well, now what are we going to do? Right now what are we going to do? What are we. What are we going to do now? Let’s do it. We’re going this weekend. We’re going to go, like, just to tubing or something for no reason.

Andrea: Just because we can.

Zach Brittle: Right again. Why don’t we just go tubing? Uh, you know, um, we, we’re trying, we’re auditioning, like hobbies, you know, like activities to do together. We’re trying to figure some stuff out. We tried to, we tried, um, we bought this video game, but one of these games where like, of course we’re sitting on the couch next to each other, but the characters that we’re playing are on different sides of the screen. And like, what she does on the left affects me on the right and I have to do things that help her on the left. So like the game is literally called It Takes Two. And so we’re like, we’re just like playing a video game, trying to figure out if we want to be gamers in our 50s, you know, that’s awesome.

Andrea: Because why not? You know, why not?

Zach Brittle: Uh, sure.

Andrea: I love it.

Zach Brittle: That’s awesome.

Andrea: I asked that question because I know, you know, I have been on the receiving end, right. Of the feeling betrayed by a spouse. Right. And when you’re in it, like when you’re really, really in it, it really feels like, how in the world am I ever going to be okay again? And how can anything be worse than this? How can anything be more pa. And yet, and yet. Right. Life. That there’s these things that just. That we cannot anticipate that in my opinion, as much as they can suck when you’re in it can give us that opportunity to really go deep and learn more about ourselves and course correct. And make deliberate choices.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. I think when you zoom out from the infidelity, the thing that we’re calling infidelity, we zoom out. I would say, did I cross a line with another human woman that was a threat to my marriage? 100 easy peasy. But my love affair with alcohol was way more of a betrayal.

Andrea: Wow. Wow.

Zach Brittle: And her Rebecca’s probably love affair with our daughters was more problematic for me. You know, so in the one case, it’s easy to look at alcohol and go, yep, bad.

Andrea: Right.

Zach Brittle: But it’s harder to look at your kids and go, yep, bad.

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Totally.

Andrea: Yep. Yes.

Zach Brittle: But. But you know, we’re betraying each other all the time and some of them are sexy and some of them are. Some of them are, you know, they grab headlines or they make, you know, um, what do they think the Lifetime movies about? You know. Yeah, most of them are just really subtle. Really subtle and small and even benign. Like, yeah, you’re good at your job. You should work more. Like, yeah. Thank you for putting A roof over our head, you know.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Or exercise or, you know, whatever. Um, and I think that when you zoom out and you appreciate like that, that the thing that, you know, distracts you from the thing needs attention. You know, that might be alcohol, might be your job, might be the woman that is this, you know, that is a threat to your relationship. It might. But the thing is. The thing, uh, I’m not saying that

Andrea: as articulately as I understand what you’re saying. Like, it doesn’t matter as much as what that thing is and understanding and taking a look.

Zach Brittle: I guess what I’m saying is the thing is in here. It’s here. It’s inside of me. It’s not. It’s not out there. I’m, um. I need to deal with the thing that’s in here.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: So that’s why sometimes when people come in and they want to, like all this accountability around the thing that’s out there, even if it’s alcohol, to be honest. Like, people come in and go, you know, you drink three nights a week. No, it’s only two nights a week. Actually, it’s four nights a week. Like, it’s such a distraction from.

Andrea: It doesn’t matter. Yep.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. M. You know, what am I supposed to do? I’m supposed to

00:35:00

Zach Brittle: take care of our kids. Yeah, you are.

Andrea: Y.

Zach Brittle: And they. They need me 100%.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. Mhm. But they also need to learn how to survive without you. And so part of learning how to train kids is how to train them to be adults and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and whatever. I’m not, I’m not trying to denigrate parenting, but it’s a really good example of how, you know, there are things out there that demand our attention. And some of them are good.

Andrea: Yeah. Right. And.

Zach Brittle: And they take your attention away from the relationship.

Andrea: Yes. And a tricky part around that is how some in our society’s views are way more noble. Right.

Zach Brittle: Yeah.

Andrea: Than others. Like what? You’ve devoted m. To motherhood. Oh, yeah. Right. Mother of the year. Amazing. Right. And yet I can speak for myself here, that I threw myself into parenting, into my. My kids. And, and often, uh, uh, I was afraid to have some of the conversations that we needed to have. Right. I. And I had this. I could hide behind my kids and call it noble.

Zach Brittle: Right.

Andrea: And there was a lot of avoidance there of, uh. Right. And yet he. The things he did, according to society, are deemed so much worse. And I get a free pass. Right. And that’s not. It’s not. It’s it doesn’t fix anything. It doesn’t fix anything. Right. We just keep recreating that until we make the thing. The thing as you’re saying, like, go in and it doesn’t matter how many nights a week, it matters like what’s going on in here. Right. What’s going on in here. Yeah. And correcting that. Yeah. Important. So tell me this in. In your work, I want to just go back. I’m just curious. You’ve been doing this for such a long time that, uh, what was it that made. That showed you this really matters to me and that I can do some real good and that where you just jumped into it. I’m curious about that.

Zach Brittle: I mean, I have existential, like, sort of self. I don’t know. So a couple of really practical things is, I, at heart, I’m a teacher. Um, and I was a teacher right out of college. I, ah, was in one of these urban settings and I thought I was going to be like the white savior who came in and fixed the program, like Stand by me or whatever those movies are. And. And I overstepped and I crossed, like, I just was bad at it. So I went back to school to become a therapist. No, I went back to school to learn therapy so that I could go be a teacher and be better at it is the real truth.

Andrea: Okay.

Zach Brittle: While I was in school, I showed an aptitude. I got tapped on the shoulder and said, hey, we want you to do some graduate assistant work. So I was like, sure, that sounds great. I’d love to have a job right out of college. So I started being a TA and doing some, like, practical work with students one on one. And I hated it. Hated every second of it until this guy brought his wife in one day and I. My whole body just, like, lit up.

Andrea: Wow.

Zach Brittle: My whole body just like, said, oh, this. I like this because I got to do teaching and I got to like, I got to defer some of the energy. As an introvert, it was really hard for me to sit with people one on one. But when I had three people in the room, I could go, oh, I can, I can defray some of this in different ways. So just like really, really organically, practically. It’s just the right job for my body. Like, it just is, uh, you know, amazing. I’m a. You know what I mean? I think I also have this thing, like one of my kind of core. I don’t know if you call it a wound or not, but, like, I am a guy. I do not talk. I do not open my mouth if I’m not sure people are listening. I just don’t do it. Like my wife is somebody who, she’ll answer questions from two rooms away. She will solve problems you don’t have. Like, she’s really different and annoying to me in that way. But, um, but you know, to be a therapist and even a podcaster where you kind of, uh, are guaranteed that the people who are coming to talk to you, they’re listening to you, I was like, oh, that’s a good job for me. It’s a good job because I’m not doing this, I’m not outside of my like, kind of core wiring. Yep. You know?

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Like they have to literally only open my mouth.

Andrea: They have to opt in, right? Yeah, yep, yeah, yep.

Zach Brittle: People. I mean, I get these, I get comments about my podcast. People like, I don’t like it. I’m like, okay, don’t opt, don’t listen, don’t listen.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Like turn it off. Or they write me like one star reviews. I’m like, why? Who are you that you like? Literally, I’m not, I don’t have this gene where I would go out of my way to write a one star review about a free thing that I chose to consume.

Andrea: Yep, I know, me too.

Zach Brittle: I don’t have that gene. But somebody does. I’m like, look, man, do yourself a favor, go spend your time doing something you love.

Andrea: Let’s go somewhere else. Like, seriously, you know, easy.

Zach Brittle: It’s funny. One of my favorite 1 star reviews of the podcast is about a time that we got on and I was talking, maybe I spent. It’s called Marriage Therapy Radio. Right. Somebody who starts listening to Marriage Therapy Radio and I’m talking about the Women’s World cup for 15 minutes. Like, I love

00:40:00

Zach Brittle: it. I love talking about soccer. I love the World cup right now. But I love the Women’s World cup. And that was eight years ago, six years ago maybe. And I still, I’ve got. No apologies. I, I, I’ll, I’ll talk to you about women’s soccer right now if you want. I love it.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: So I’m like, okay, it’s not your thing. Uh, that’s fine. Don’t listen.

Andrea: You asked for right past like fast

Zach Brittle: forward, there’s a 15 second buyer.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Just 15 seconds if we get to the stuff.

Andrea: Funny. It’s so funny. So, uh, in, in all of your years, do you feel with the infidelity work specifically that you’ve done? I guess, let me rephrase that. What would you have people know from your experience, what would you want people to hear? If you had all the people that are listening sitting here and they’re looking to you for some wisdom that you want them to know.

Zach Brittle: Yeah. I mean, so I’m a. I mean, when I talked about being a teacher, I was an English teacher, so I had a good story arc. Right. I love a good, awesome, like, you know, so I’m gonna say, yeah, it’s not your fault. It’s not your fault. You’re not alone. You’re not crazy. That’s what I would want you to know. And then I would want you to be interesting. Tell a better story, man. Tell the cool story, the one that, that like, with the plot twist we don’t see coming. So cool about how you recovered from this thing. Yeah.

Andrea: Yep.

Zach Brittle: You know, we’ve all seen the movie where you throw the plates and you, you know, you beat the girl’s ass and you, you know, you whatever. Like tell a different story.

Andrea: Yeah.

Zach Brittle: Tell the one about how you’re just. You’re okay.

Andrea: Mhm.

Zach Brittle: Because that’s interesting to me.

Andrea: Yeah. And most of all, I think what an interesting story for them, right?

Zach Brittle: Mhm.

Andrea: For them to be like, check me out. What a cool story I have. Look what I did with this. Right. That they are interesting to themselves and respect their own story. Right?

Zach Brittle: Yeah.

Andrea: I love it. Incredible. All right, well, it has been a wonderful time chatting with you. How can. If people want to learn more from you, how can they find you?

Zach Brittle: Uh, well, we’ve talked about it a couple times. Marriage Therapy radio is my podcast, comes out every Tuesday. And the format there is that I’m m just talking to a different couple every week. Like they’re from over the. They’re from all over the map. Um, they have, they have interesting stories that have boring stories. They have conflict stories, they have fidelity stories. They have I’m young stories. They have. I’m, um, Old stories. They have. I mean, so I just feel like again, most people’s sample size for couples that they know is like, my parents, your parents, our neighbor, uh, some people I saw on TV, you know, that’s about it. It’s five to 10. And I’ve got thousands, you know, and so amazing. If you listen to Marriage Therapy Radio for a year, you’ll get 52 news stories about how people make it work. And then I’m on substack. That’s where I’m kind of doing most of my thinking out loud. I have a substack. It’s called stuff I Write I love it. Stuff. I write dot com. And, um, so I just write stuff there. And, uh, those are probably the two main ways. And then, of course, you know, the Internet. You can find anybody on the Internet. As long as you know how to spell my name.

Andrea: Yep, yep, yep. Which we’ll have in the show notes. No worries. People will be able to find you. Okay, one more last question. What do you believe about marriage?

Zach Brittle: I believe that Sloan said he wins the race. I believe that it is a choice. And I believe that the best marriages boil down to really two pretty simple things. And the first one is gotta be a grown up, gotta be an adult. And we’re fond of saying gotta be a sober adult. It doesn’t mean you don’t drink. It just means you’re of, um, sober mind and you’re thoughtful. The second one is, if you really want to make your marriage work, you do more things that your partner likes and fewer things that they don’t. Like.

Andrea: Straightforward. Straightforward.

Zach Brittle: That’s the whole thing, right?

Andrea: Yes.

Zach Brittle: Be a grown up, do more things that your partner likes and fewer things that they don’t.

Andrea: Beautiful.

Zach Brittle: That’s it.

Andrea: Yep, Yep. I love it. So simple and yet, so simple and how we get in our way and yet. Right? But so simple. Relay. Beautiful, beautiful. I love it. Any last wisdom gems that you’d like to leave? Anything else that comes to mind that you’d like to share?

Zach Brittle: No, man, I think I knocked it out of the park today. I think you got a, uh, world class experience today.

Andrea: Yep. It was amazing. Yep. I agree. Killed it.

Zach Brittle: Tell me more, tell me more. I can remember. I need it. I need the affirmation and the appreciation. I need, I need.

Andrea: I love it. I love it. You know, I have to say, it’s so refreshing to find people in the professional space that are willing to just be real, be like, yeah, I don’t have it all figured out. I’m willing to talk about it. I’m willing to share. Like, such a breath of fresh air. So thank you. Thank you for just starting out with honesty. I know that the people listening will hear your very first bit and be like, ooh, he’s my people. I can sit there, you know, like, not talking above people, but with them. Um, and I love it. Beautiful. Thank you so much. I know you’ll have a bunch of new listeners

00:45:00

Andrea: to your podcast.

Zach Brittle: Well, thanks for having me. I was. I’m glad to know of your podcast and I know it’ll be of value to some of my clients. Um, and I’ll be glad to point them toward this episode and more. So appreciate it.

Andrea: You bet. All right. Thank you, Zach. Take care. Good to have you on.

Zach Brittle: Okay.

Andrea: All right. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Heal from Infidelity podcast. If you would like to be kept in the know about upcoming free classes, new podcast episodes and other ways of working with me, go subscribe to my weekly email. You can subscribe at https://andreagiles.com/lies-about-infidelity/ Again, it’s https://andreagiles.com/lies-about-infidelity/. I will see you next time.